Allied invasion of Spain during WW2

[Wolf]

I'm looking for sources on the strength, deployment and defensive plans of the Spanish armed forces in the event of an allied invasion..., anybody know of any?

[pintere]

What year are you thinking of?

[Wolf]

1944...

[maltesefalcon]

Not sure why the Allies would risk an invasion of Spain in 1944.
By then the Axis was out of North Africa and Italy was on the ropes.

The Allies had their logistic hands full with Overlord, Anvil and the Pacific.
Spain was not a threat by then. Any use of Spain as a conduit to France pre-Overlord must be balanced with the greater distance for supplies to travel. Then the routes from Spain to France would offer only a few options-easier to block. The Germans could set up another Gustav line, at least until events resulting from an invasion of France would render the position untenable.

Finally what justification could the Allies use politically? (The fact that Spain was friendly to the Germans would not be enough. Sweden and Switzerland would then be liable to invasion for the same reason.)

[Sheldrake]

According to Frederick Morgan, who as COSSAC in 1943 drew up the Op Overlord Plan, the planners did consider the option of launching the Second front through the Iberian Peninsular. They considered everywhere from the North Cape to Gibraltar in May- June 1943. One reason for looking seriously at Spain was because this was where the British Army faced Napoleon's armies on the last occasion that mainland Europe had to be recovered from a dominant power. However, Spain and Portugal were rejected early on. The lack of ports and poor transport infrastructure made it a difficult country "for the conduct of a modern campaign by first class armies."

[maltesefalcon]

According to Frederick Morgan, who as COSSAC in 1943 drew up the Op Overlord Plan, the planners did consider the option of launching the Second front through the Iberian Peninsular. They considered everywhere from the North Cape to Gibraltar in May- June 1943. One reason for looking seriously at Spain was because this was where the British Army faced Napoleon's armies on the last occasion that mainland Europe had to be recovered from a dominant power. However, Spain and Portugal were rejected early on. The lack of ports and poor transport infrastructure made it a difficult country "for the conduct of a modern campaign by first class armies."

Interesting find. But in the Peninsular War going to Spain made sense because:

1) Spain and Portugal were allies.
2) The French enemy were already there to fight them.

There would be very few Germans in Spain by 1944 and attacking the Spanish would only add one more enemy to deal with.

[Sheldrake]

According to Frederick Morgan, who as COSSAC in 1943 drew up the Op Overlord Plan, the planners did consider the option of launching the Second front through the Iberian Peninsular. They considered everywhere from the North Cape to Gibraltar in May- June 1943. One reason for looking seriously at Spain was because this was where the British Army faced Napoleon's armies on the last occasion that mainland Europe had to be recovered from a dominant power. However, Spain and Portugal were rejected early on. The lack of ports and poor transport infrastructure made it a difficult country "for the conduct of a modern campaign by first class armies."

Interesting find. But in the Peninsular War going to Spain made sense because:

1) Spain and Portugal were allies.
2) The French enemy were already there to fight them.

There would be very few Germans in Spain by 1944 and attacking the Spanish would only add one more enemy to deal with.

Bearing in mind the practical considerations that quickly ruled out Iberia, these points might not have been insuperable obstacles.

1. The absence of Germans might have been a positive advantage if a lodgement area could have been seized quickly with minimal casualties. Suppose "Op Overlord" was the unopposed seizure of the Basque country by 21st Army Group and Catalonia by the 7th US Army and FEC.

2. A landing in Spain might add allies as well as enemies. There were plenty of exiles urging the allies to depose Franco in the name of restoring the Republic.

[magicdragon]

Another reason two words "The Pyrenees" Not that hard to imagine a significant number of Spanish troops being able to retreat to the Spain/France border supported by German troops conducting an "Italian Campaign Mark II" in terrain as harsh as any in Italy. The type of campaign which nullified most of the Allies strengths (superior mobility, artillery and air power) and would amplified the Spanish/German strengths (committed troops, local knowledge and tactical leadership) .

[Sheldrake]

Another reason two words "The Pyrenees" Not that hard to imagine a significant number of Spanish troops being able to retreat to the Spain/France border supported by German troops conducting an "Italian Campaign Mark II" in terrain as harsh as any in Italy. The type of campaign which nullified most of the Allies strengths (superior mobility, artillery and air power) and would amplified the Spanish/German strengths (committed troops, local knowledge and tactical leadership) .

Except, that the Italian campaign was waged up the leg of Italy along the mountain ridge while the Allies would be attacking across the Pyrenees. My armchair solution was to land on the east and west coasts near the Pyrenees in the Basque and Catalan regions.

The main conclusion of this discussion is it highlights the other reasons to discount Iberia beyond the unsuitable infrastructure.

Of course, if Spain and Portugal had the transport infrastructure to support a modern campaign, it would have been the result of more modern, industrial economies and much better equipped armed forces that was historically the case. If Fascist Spain had a comparable economy to France would it have entered the war, and would it have affected the outcome?

[Wolf]

Sweden and Switzerland would then be liable to invasion for the same reason.

Small countries always are - if it suits the great powers.

Realistic or not - I'd like to know the broader Spanish defence plans and the deployment of the Spanish army in case of an allied invasion. I have picked 1944 but would be happy to learn a bit about basically any year during WW2 - I assume the plans might have changed over time.

[Ironmachine]

AFAIK, there is very little published in Spanish about that matter, and probably there is even less available in English.

[Kingfish]

Here is a link for the Spanish OOB for ww2:

http://www.niehorster.org/080_spain/__spain.html

Click on the 4 division links listed under military organization and you'll see where the respective units were stationed on 6/6/44

Another reason two words "The Pyrenees" Not that hard to imagine a significant number of Spanish troops being able to retreat to the Spain/France border supported by German troops conducting an "Italian Campaign Mark II" in terrain as harsh as any in Italy.

The Pyrenees don't actually stretch across the entire border. As this map shows:


there are two "gaps", one on each end near the two coastlines, which would serve as exists into France *if* the allies can get through quickly enough. Once across the country really opens up, especially along the Atlantic coast.

Here is a map of the German deployments on 6/6/44:



You can see the Germans thought an allied landing in that area was very unlikely. Only low-grade and incomplete infantry formations stretched thin along the coast, with one SS PD to provide support.

[Carl Schwamberger]

The 'gaps' at each end of the Pyrenees are still fairly rugged. a look at Google Earth shows valleys compatmented by high elevations & steep slopes. It also looks like the two main railways connecting France to Iberia are very close to the coast, making the easier to seize with flanking landings along the shore.

The only English language reference to Spanish war plans I've seen was in a book about Portugal in WWII 'Lisbon. The City of Light'. That had a couple Paragraphs about the Portuguse plan for a Axis/Spanish invasion. It seems Portuguse intelligence officers turned up a Spanish army staff study on the requirements for seizing the Tungsten mines & possibly Lisboa. Since the Portuguse plan was to evacuate the government to the Azores & the army had only a few regiments & little modern equipment I'm guessing two Spanish corps might have been sufficient, absent any British intervention.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Duplicate Post

[Ironmachine]

Here is a link for the Spanish OOB for ww2:

http://www.niehorster.org/080_spain/__spain.html

Click on the 4 division links listed under military organization and you'll see where the respective units were stationed on 6/6/44

Actually there were more divisions that are not included in the list provided, and some of those present have their location wrong. As there is no indication about the non-divisional units.