Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

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Futurist
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Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#1

Post by Futurist » 06 Apr 2016, 08:31

Would the implementation of universal education combined with *no* Bolshevik Revolution have caused most Ukrainians to adopt a Russian ethnic identity?

As in, eventually adopt a Russian ethnic identity. Also, by *no* Bolshevik Revolution, I mean that the Bolshevik Revolution never occurs in Russia in this scenario.

After all, I have previously heard the blogger Anatoly Karlin make this argument.

Any thoughts on this question of mine?

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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#2

Post by BDV » 06 Apr 2016, 16:09

With different decisions made yes, this is highly possible, in particular if the nationalist-socialist Mensheviks win the post-Czar power struggle.

Objectively, national identity is a combination of top-down imposition by centralized decision and of ground realities supporting it. However the Rus eyes were affixed to much farther - Central Europe, so the effort to shape Ukrainians into proper Rus was not there (plus for an Empire divide-and-conquer is the modus vivendi)

In Russian krai (u-KRAI-na), means border/edge. See Wikipedia for more (semi-controversial) info
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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#3

Post by wm » 06 Apr 2016, 19:31

Futurist wrote:Would the implementation of universal education combined with *no* Bolshevik Revolution have caused most Ukrainians to adopt a Russian ethnic identity?
You mean like the Slovaks adopted a Czech ethnic identity, or the Scots adopted an English identity?

This wouldn't work for the simple reason an ethnic identity is the best political capital the local elites and local politicians have. I would be stupid of them to forsake such advantage.

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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#4

Post by Futurist » 06 Apr 2016, 21:49

wm wrote:
Futurist wrote:Would the implementation of universal education combined with *no* Bolshevik Revolution have caused most Ukrainians to adopt a Russian ethnic identity?
You mean like the Slovaks adopted a Czech ethnic identity, or the Scots adopted an English identity?
No; rather, I mean like the Occitans adopted a French ethnic identity.

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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#5

Post by wm » 06 Apr 2016, 22:43

But they say the Occitan language is recognized as an official language in Catalonia, and is still used to varying levels by between 100,000 and 800,000 speakers. It's not like they wholesale adopted, their culture is still alive and kicking.

Your question is not a theoretical one. It was tested in Poland, in Czechoslovakia. Simplifying it could be said that before the Great War the masses didn't care much about their national identity, they were fine with the rule of the Czar or the Emperor. There were places they regarded the elites as their oppressors, the distant Czar/Emperor as their protectors.
But the elites were restless, at least a part of them. And their ideology, the nationalistic card was the best there were, and the easiest to spread. Eventually they taught the masses how to be a good Pole/Czech. And actually universal education helped immensely, it allowed them to reach the population easily.

It should be mentioned in the USSR the Ukrainians weren't always welcomed by the Russians with open arms. The boorish Ukrainian with a piece of lard in his hand was frequently the butt of Russian jokes. It is not easy to adopt a foreign ethnic identity when you are actually different...

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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#6

Post by Futurist » 07 Apr 2016, 00:17

wm wrote:But they say the Occitan language is recognized as an official language in Catalonia, and is still used to varying levels by between 100,000 and 800,000 speakers. It's not like they wholesale adopted, their culture is still alive and kicking.
How many French people used the Occitan language in 1800, 1850, 1900, and 1950, though?

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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#7

Post by wm » 13 Apr 2016, 00:45

Much more, but it should be mentioned that language faced systematic and persistent French eradication efforts, they have relented just a decade or two ago.
It was the usual abstract progressive utopianism in action again it seems.

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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#8

Post by Futurist » 18 Apr 2016, 07:54

wm wrote:Much more, but it should be mentioned that language faced systematic and persistent French eradication efforts, they have relented just a decade or two ago.
It was the usual abstract progressive utopianism in action again it seems.
Couldn't Russia have likewise launched systematic and persistent eradication efforts against both the Ukrainian language and the Belorussian language in this scenario, though?

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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#9

Post by wm » 18 Apr 2016, 23:23

The customs and language of millions of people occupying contiguous ethnic territories are hard to eradicate. And the local politicians wouldn't allow it, they would love the opportunity to present themselves as the defenders of the innocent.

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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#10

Post by Futurist » 29 Apr 2016, 22:00

wm wrote:The customs and language of millions of people occupying contiguous ethnic territories are hard to eradicate.
Weren't there also millions of Occitan people, though?
And the local politicians wouldn't allow it, they would love the opportunity to present themselves as the defenders of the innocent.
Did local Occitan politicians allow France to actively oppose the Occitan language in real life, though? Or did France do this without any input from local Occitan politicians?

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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#11

Post by wm » 02 May 2016, 12:03

As I understand it those people although numerous weren't a nation, but a loose group of people speaking various dialects of their language, because of this they never were a capable political force. Their own politicians emerged and gained influence only at the end of the twentieth century.

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Re: Hypothetical Ukraine Russification question

#12

Post by Futurist » 03 May 2016, 01:28

wm wrote:As I understand it those people although numerous weren't a nation, but a loose group of people speaking various dialects of their language, because of this they never were a capable political force. Their own politicians emerged and gained influence only at the end of the twentieth century.
Were Ukrainians an actual nation in the years and decades before World War I broke out, though?

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