What if Hitler had officially supported the peasants to fight against the USSR?

[Erwinn]

Instead of untrustworthy peasants, they should've better cooperated with their allies. Giving them adequate equipment or plans to build those equipment. Maybe encourage them to recruit more soldiers. Use the resources to raise more armies in allied nations. A million Russian peasants or a new Hungarian and Romanian armies? Which one would you choose?

[pugsville]

they lack the arms and equipment equip their own troops , their economy was heavily constrained by a shortage of resources.

[BDV]

they lack the arms and equipment equip their own troops , their economy was heavily constrained by a shortage of resources.

Which was, in no small part, due to the fact that the men that could help them extract those resources from the East were either lingering in ghettos, or rotting in mass graves.

[wm]

Most of the East European Jews were uneducated religious Jews, orthodox or ultra-orthodox.
Jewish elites fled to Western Europe/Hungary/Romania or with the Soviets. Religious Jews and the Jewish poor couldn't and didn't.
Those people were incapable of any extraction of resources, they could be and were used as unskilled labor only.
Later the Germans decided they didn't need them as they had lots of better, skilled workers available from all the Eastern Europe.
Many of the Jewish skilled workers survived the war, because they were considered useful or even irreplaceable, although many of them were murdered anyway in the last two years of the war, mostly during the so called operation Harvest Festival.

I repeat that "a large number peasants" is a very vague and not terribly important claim. is it a majority of peasantry? roughly how much? without some numbers it pretty meaningless statements.

and if they are selling their for what are they selling it for? without production what are the city folk offering?

Production was going in the cities on a limited scale, including all the craftsmen/artisans, shoemakers, bakers still doing their work there.
But most of people bartered for food whatever they could and anything they owned: from books, clothes to gold rings.

It's vague becasue not that much is known about the lives of the lowest social classes during the occupation despite the fact they were the majority of the population. History was written by the elites and the Jews.
More is known about the Jews (including nice, detailed statistics) in the ghettos than about the people living outside.
The poor rarely wrote books or memories, and had limited knowledge of anything happening outside their villages and towns anyway.

[BDV]

You posts fail (repeatedly) to mention the most important activity of the members of the jewish community from the economic POV - commerce.

We'll leave that at that, but let's discuss one statement of yours:

Religious Jews and the Jewish poor couldn't and didn't.
Those people were incapable of any extraction of resources, they could be and were used as unskilled labor only.

How do you propose the jewish community earned its keep in the European society? As you state that they were "incapable of any extraction of resources" are you implying their economic position was as strict parasites?

What does this have to do with the already kholhozified rural economy of central and Eastern Belarus and Ukraine?

[Erwinn]

Jewish people learns that basic stuff since they were a child. I wouldn't underestimate even the poor ones.

For arms and other stuff to lend their allies, they are not gonna produce it for them "they will help them produce it"

Make plans for better use of their industry. Instead of shitty Italian tanks, make them produce Panzer IV for example.

[wm]

The problem with the poor was they were mostly orthodox and ultra-orthodox folks, they prefered their Tora studies more than anything else. Nothing wrong with that, they knew a lot but their knowledge was rather esoteric. See the "Blacks" in Israel for an example.

The point is there wasn't any untapped Ukrainian potential available, and there wasn't any untapped Jewish potential available.

The Ukrainian peasants produced food for the front and Germany, millions others were sent to work in German factories, served as Hiwis in the Wehrmacht, or even as volunteers.
Additionally millions of Ukrainian young men ended up on the Soviet territory, so in the end there weren't that many of them available for any Ukrainian Army.

For the German war efforts those Ukrainian workers/Hiwis were as important as soldiers, if not more - it's not like wars are won by fighting alone. So releasing a million or two from their duties and creating an army from them would be a wasteful, bad idea.

Similarly, the Jews were forced to work from the day one. Judenrats were required to deliver work brigades which worked outside or in work camps. Jewish workshops, companies in the Ghettos produced lots of stuff essential for the German army and economy.
When the Holocaust started the best, productive Jewish workers were usually spared.
And as I said there weren't that many workers among them anyway. Many young Jews fled with the Soviets, the rest were of limited use, at least for the purpose of extraction of resources.
I suppose they could have been employed as overseers but many of the wealthy Jews, the leaders, the elites were able to flee too.

[BDV]

The problem with the poor was they were mostly orthodox and ultra-orthodox folks, they prefered their Tora studies more than anything else. Nothing wrong with that, they knew a lot but their knowledge was rather esoteric. See the "Blacks" in Israel for an example.

Nice attempt at redirection. Is not the Torah scholars who were a key component of the Eastern European economy.

The point is there wasn't any untapped Ukrainian potential available, and there wasn't any untapped Jewish potential available.

The importance of commerce in the local economy seems to escape you. The potential of the massacred jews and of those forced to congregate in the ghettos was definitely severely hampered.

As you testified about your own family's experiences - more food available and no more "bosses". That Germans were incompetent at competently exploiting your family is not a bad thing as such. It's just that from the macro-economic POV that simply means that resources (labour and food) were left untapped.

[wm]

Nice attempt at redirection. Is not the Torah scholars who were a key component of the Eastern European economy.

Actually all the orthodox Jews, the Hasidim were "scholars", they believed learning God's laws was more important than working.

This realization was also reinforced by my father's critical view of Jewish life in Poland. Hew was appalled by the neglect of practical education and planning for the future of the younger generation. At that time most religious Jews, especially Hasidim, gave their children only a religious education, leaving their economic future to God, and the results had been disastrous. How many heder teachers, rabbis, shochtim, and other minor religious functionaries could the increasingly impoverished community sustain? He was also troubled by the prejudice against craftsmanship or agriculture that was prevalent among religious Jews, and was dismayed by their preoccupation with tales of miracles attributed to Hasidic leaders and their disregard of the political and economic realities.
Ben-Zion Gold The Life of Jews in Poland Before the Holocaust

The importance of commerce in the local economy seems to escape you. The potential of the massacred jews and of those forced to congregate in the ghettos was definitely severely hampered.

During the occupation, in the war time economy there were no place for commerce - everything was rationed and pre-allocated. Actually it was forbidden, people who tried to do it anyway were executed.

[BDV]

Actually all the orthodox Jews, the Hasidim were "scholars", they believed learning God's laws was more important than working.

Irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about the jewish merchants, not hassidic scholars. Although as an aside it is of course illustrative to the economic power of the jewish community the fact that they were able to support a group of people dedicated to strictly intellectual-religious pursuits.

During the occupation, in the war time economy there were no place for commerce - everything was rationed and pre-allocated. Actually it was forbidden, people who tried to do it anyway were executed.

Empty generalization (what is "everything" supposed to mean? => was water rationed? air?) and contradicted by your own statement of the improvement in your family's situation; ergo excess labor and food left untapped by Nazi Germans - multiplied 5-10 million fold for the subsistence farmers in occupied Eastern Europe; and that is not accounting for the kulak class, the actual producers of plusvalue in the rural East European economy of late XIXth - early XXth century.

[wm]

In cities and towns everything useful for survival was rationed; like food, shoes, clothes, villages were expected to survive without any rations and were allocated nothing.

The better years were only possible because the Germans weren't able to implement their exploitation economy quickly. It took them two years to organize the system properly.
But it wasn't really possible to do it quicker.

In the USSR it was much easier - the exploitative system was in place and working quite well, so only the masters were replaced.
The Jewish merchants and hasidic scholars were the same people. They all were expected to do intellectual-religious pursuits. They had princely leaders with princely courts, but not the usual Jewish scholars. And generally they were poor businessmen, encumbered with lots of superstitions, naive worldview, their life was full of lurid fantasy.

[BDV]

In cities and towns everything useful for survival was rationed; like food, shoes, clothes, villages were expected to survive without any rations and were allocated nothing.

A common name for jewish people in Cenral Europe was "Shuster"; this word has remained in some local languages/dialects with the meaning of cobbler. In particular in war rationing situation, shoe repairmen will increase the availability and quality of footware; thus leading to higher productivity. A small thing by itself, sure; but one of the thousand cuts in which Nazi racist policies bled eastern Europe economy to death.

The Jewish merchants and hasidic scholars were the same people.

Please source your statement. My family's experience is quite different. My literary sources on jewish life in the KuK empire, also disagree.

And generally they were poor businessmen,

Please source your statement. My family's experience is quite different. My literary sources on jewish life in the KuK empire, also disagree.

encumbered with lots of superstitions, naive worldview, their life was full of lurid fantasy.

?? ??

[wm]

It's a reference to the cultural shock experienced by many Westerns meeting the Eastern Jews for the first time.
For example from Richard Glazar, Trap with a Green Fence:

The Polish Jews: they were people from a different world. They were filthy. They knew nothing. lt was impossible to feel any compassion, any solidarity with them. Of course, l am not talking about the Warsaw or Kraków intellectuals; they were no different from us. I am talking about Belorussian Jews or those from the extreme east of Poland.

From those who managed to survive it was only me and my comrade Karel Unger - from ‘West’ from Czechoslovakia. All the others came from the poor wastelands of Eastern Poland. They were simple, molded by the circumstances they grew up in. Their lives were in complete isolation from the rest, in the voluntary ghettos, which were called ‘shtetl’.

They could not speak good enough German, their mother language was Yiddish, and their life was streaked with lurid fantasy.

It is strange you are painting the KuK Empire as some land of plenty. The main place the Jews lived there was the shithole called Galicia. Even today in Polish Galicia is synonym for grinding poverty (or as a wordplay the land of the naked and hungry).

Tens of millions of young Jews and Poles had to fled the place, mainly to America, being mercilessly exploited on their way and at their destination by unscrupulous criminal gangs. Every year thousands of Jewish girls were snatched from their homes by Jewish gangsters to be sold as slaves in American bordellos. People rarely reached their forties there. Child mortality was above 30%.
And this place didn't improve much in the interbellum period.

This was one of those " poor wastelands" where people lived filthy life, and were actually filthy themselves.

But it's not the point, the point is that during the occupation the entire Jewish workforce in Poland (from 16 to 65) was mobilized. Not everybody was working, there wasn't enough work for all of them, but many were. There were numerous work camps just for them.
The Warsaw Ghetto produced a million boots for the Wehrmacht in a few months. If I'm not mistaken at some point of time all the winter clothing for the German Army was produced there.
The Łódź Ghetto was a major industrial centre. 95% of its population was employed in 117 workshops.
That the bored Jews languished in their ghettos is a myth.

It's funny you mentioned the Jewish shoe repairmen, as the Polish peasants spent their lives mostly shoeless they didn't have much use for shoe repairmen.

[BDV]

The main place the Jews lived there was the shithole called Galicia.

?

This was one of those " poor wastelands" where people lived filthy life, and were actually filthy themselves.

?

It's funny you mentioned the Jewish shoe repairmen, as the Polish peasants spent their lives mostly shoeless they didn't have much use for shoe repairmen.

Exactly, there was no footwear excess (like in "there was plenty of extra footwear, so there was minimal impact if the workers had to wear slightly more worn out shoes"). Every shoe that would have had its lifespan extended a month, a week, a day, would have directly increased productivity respectively.

[wm]

Well, in practice when a shoeless Jew doing wetland drainage in winter died he was replaced by another, maybe equally shoeless and destined to die too. It was considered cheaper than equipping everyone with proper work boots - which weren't cheap at all at that time.
Anyway most of the Jews died from mistreatment not because they lacked boots. It would be much easier and cheaper to improve productivity by not beating them so wantonly.