Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

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Michael Kenny
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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#331

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Aug 2016, 18:53

The Allied secret weapon was its citizen Army.
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#332

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Aug 2016, 19:36

Politician01 wrote:
For once you are correct:
Why are you shy of giving the source for your quote?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reich-Black-Su ... op?ie=UTF8

A book full of the most bizzare conspiracy theories about the assassination of Patton and a secret German A-Bomb.

A hint to Google book-bound researchers. The words in yellow in the results are the words you put in the search bar.


Richard Anderson
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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#333

Post by Richard Anderson » 24 Aug 2016, 19:47

Michael Kenny wrote:
Politician01 wrote:
For once you are correct:
Why are you shy of giving the source for your quote?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reich-Black-Su ... op?ie=UTF8

A book full of the most bizzare conspiracy theories about the assassination of Patton and a secret German A-Bomb.

A hint to Google book-bound researchers. The words in yellow in the results are the words you put in the search bar.
:D http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Farrell :D

"Dr. Joseph Patrick Farrell (born 1955) is an American writer and alternative media personality. From Sioux Falls, South Dakota he is known in public life for two different things. Firstly, he was a convert to Orthodox Christianity and wrote a number of theological books after studying at high level universities in the late 1980s into the 1990s. Secondly, he is known for his more eccentric works in the 2000s about alternative archaeology, physics, technology and history (including contentious information about National Socialism)." :welcome:

Alternative history

His book "The Giza Death Star" was published in the spring of 2002, and was his first venture into "alternative history and science". In order of subject readability and topicality:[1]

On The Paleophysics of the Great Pyramid, and the Military Complex at Giza:

Giza Death Star: The Paleophysics of the Great Pyramid and the Military Complex at Giza (Adventures Unlimited Press, Dec 2001)
Giza Death Star Deployed: The Physics and Engineering of the Great Pyramid (Adventures Unlimited Press, 1 Oct 2003)
Giza Death Star Destroyed (Adventures Unlimited Press, 1 Jan 2006)
Cosmic War: Interplanetary Warfare, Modern Physics and Ancient Texts (Adventures Unlimited Press, 15 Oct 2007)
Genes, Giants, Monsters, and Men: The Surviving Elites of the Cosmic War and Their Hidden Agenda (Feral House, 3 May 2011)
Grid of the Gods: The Aftermath of the Cosmic War and the Physics of the Pyramid Peoples (Adventures Unlimited Press, 1 September 2011)

On the subject of secret Nazi technology and its applications and impact today:

Reich of the Black Sun: Nazi Secret Weapons and the Cold War Allied Legend (Adventures Unlimited Press, 2005)
SS Brotherhood of the Bell: The Nazi's Incredible Secret Technology (Adventures Unlimited Press, 2006)
Secrets of the Unified Field: The Philadelphia Experiment, The Nazi Bell, and the Discarded Theory (Adventures Unlimited Press, 2008)
The Philosopher's Stone: Alchemy and the Secret Research for Exotic Matter (Feral House, April 2009)
Nazi International: The Nazis' Postwar Plan to Control Finance, Conflict, Physics and Space (Adventures Unlimited Press, March 15, 2009)
Roswell and the Reich: The Nazi Connection (Adventures Unlimited Press, 15 Feb 2010)
Babylon's Banksters: The Alchemy of Deep Physics, High Finance and Ancient Religion (Feral House, April 2010)
Saucers, Swastikas and Psyops: A History of A Breakaway Civilization: Hidden Aerospace Technologies and Psychological Operations (Adventures Unlimited Press, February 2012)
Covert Wars and Breakaway Civilizations: The Secret Space Program, Celestial Psyops and Hidden Conflicts (Adventures Unlimited Press, 26 December 2012)
Covert Wars and the Clash of Civilizations: UFOs, Oligarchs and Space Secrecy (Adventures Unlimited Press, 15 October 2013)
Financial Vipers and Venice: Alchemical Money, Magical Physics, and Banking in the Middle Ages and Renaissance (Adventures Unlimited Press, 15 October 2013)

Other:

LBJ and the Conspiracy to Kill Kennedy: A Coalescence of Interests (Adventures Unlimited Press, 1 March 2011)
with Scott D. de Hart Transhumanism: A Grimoire of Alchemical Agendas (Feral House, 30 October 2012)
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Politician01
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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#334

Post by Politician01 » 24 Aug 2016, 20:00

Michael Kenny wrote:
Politician01 wrote:
For once you are correct:
Why are you shy of giving the source for your quote?
Fedden (who was also chief of the technical mission to Germany for the Ministry of Aircraft Production) stated in 1945:
I have seen enough of their designs and production plans to realize that if they (the Germans) had managed to prolong the war some months longer, we would have been confronted with a set of entirely new and deadly developments in air warfare.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_UFOs

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#335

Post by Stiltzkin » 24 Aug 2016, 20:49

https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstr ... sAllowed=y

I have the feeling this whole thread is getting out of hand because people are unable to control their emotions. Childish. Inferiority complexes and vanities are taking over instead of conducting a mature discussion.

WIth that said, the Allies would once again use their best weapon : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ienp4J3pW7U :lol: (sorry I just had to do it)

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#336

Post by Richard Anderson » 24 Aug 2016, 21:28

Stiltzkin wrote:I have the feeling this whole thread is going out of hand because people are unable to control their emotions. Childish. Inferiority complexes and vanities are taking over instead of conducting a mature discussion.
Indeed, I have mentioned Ristuccia's paper a number of times in different threads here. It goes far to explain exactly why Mr. G's oft-used argument that the Germans had "more machine tools than the Americans" is so lacking in understanding. The reaction has always been just as you described. :roll:

Now we are being told to believe in UFOlogists' assessments of the German aircraft industry. That also is a reaction such as you describe. :roll: :lol:

Yes, the childish reaction that Germany somehow got "cheated" out of winning and the inferiority complexes, vanities, and lack of critical thinking which drives such infantile reactions always astonishes me. :thumbsup:
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#337

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Aug 2016, 22:38

Politician01 wrote:
then the Germans would have an extra 20 000+ AFV´s , 5 Million + soldiers, 10 000+ aircraft, 200 000+ motor vehicles, 30 000+ artillery guns they could throw against the WAllies in the 1942-1944/5 period.
As Europe would slowly sink under the weight of all this extra equipment all the Allies would do is wait until the English channel lapped Berlin and launch the invasion straight into the bunker where Hitler was cowering-or just float A-bombs over with contact fuses. Might take a few years to take the Antartic Haunebu bases and get back the Holy Lance though.

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#338

Post by Stiltzkin » 24 Aug 2016, 23:43

You talkin' THOSE figures?
Do you have any military studies you could provide, with NPW out of the question?

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#339

Post by David Thompson » 24 Aug 2016, 23:53

An exchange of posts between Politician 01 and Richard Anderson, containing insulting personal remarks, were removed by the moderator pursuant to forum rules. Our readers aren't interested in your opinions of other posters, gentlemen. Be civil or be gone.

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#340

Post by T. A. Gardner » 25 Aug 2016, 00:33

Politician01 wrote:
T. A. Gardner wrote:So long as the war between Germany and the Western Allies continues, Germany will continue to fall behind the West technologically. In fact, if it continues long enough it becomes an RMA in itself with the West advancing beyond the Germans to the point where they are in two separate technological classes.
Complete and utter nonsence. The Germans were far ahead in many areas which the Allies would have either never closed or would have needed decades to catch up. Especially if they dont get their hands on German technological inventions, and roughly 1500 German scientist and 10 Billion Dollars worth of patents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Oh and the Soviets profited tremendously from plundering German innovation as well. They abducted up to 2000 German scientists which advanced their level of technology by at least half a decade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
Do tell. Please, do regale us with exactly what technologies the West didn't have that Germany did or ones where Germany was more advanced in than the West in 1945 when the war ended. I can think of a few and the most important one, in terms of advance over US / British practice wasn't even part of Paperclip...

The Soviets profited more than the West did, but that's not an issue here.

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#341

Post by Guaporense » 25 Aug 2016, 01:36

Stiltzkin wrote:
because the USSR, despite it's relatively small scientific resources, developed the bomb by 1949.
Enrichment, accumulation procedures and centrifuge concepts were handed over by this man: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _badge.png
Closing the gap and shortening the time for the USSR to develop their own atomic bomb (and China!).
The communists will not take over China because the USSR would be defeated.
A much better fate.
Perhaps but I don't think Japanese vassal type of China would fare well specially if it's occupied by a fascist Japan.
the regime would have collapsed like USSR's did historically.
I have come to the same conclusions, disintegration due to reforms (or inability) and economical mismanagement.
The best "what if" is if Germany wins WW1.

While their regime was not democratic it was a secular regime consistent with technological progress and economic development. If Germany wins WW1 they would essentially control Europe and be the world's superpower. WW2, Hitler, the holocaust, the Soviet Union, Stalin, would never exist, the world would be much better off (and with 50 million people more in Europe by 1945), the US would never become a superpower and Europe would still be the central region of the world.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#342

Post by Stiltzkin » 25 Aug 2016, 01:50

The best "what if" is if Germany wins WW1.
The last feudal structures collapsed with WW1. It may be a natural process nations are going through under industrialization.

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#343

Post by Guaporense » 25 Aug 2016, 02:12

Richard Anderson wrote:
Stiltzkin wrote:I have the feeling this whole thread is going out of hand because people are unable to control their emotions. Childish. Inferiority complexes and vanities are taking over instead of conducting a mature discussion.
Indeed, I have mentioned Ristuccia's paper a number of times in different threads here. It goes far to explain exactly why Mr. G's oft-used argument that the Germans had "more machine tools than the Americans" is so lacking in understanding.
The paper's conclusions are the following:

- the idea that Europe had a different system of manufacturing than the US at the time (1930's-1940's) is wrong.

- instead, they used the same technologies and had similar distribution of stocks of industrial machines of different types.

- there was some technological difference in 1930, when the US had relatively more modern types of machines, between 1930 and 1945, the technological difference decreased, however. But even in 1930 the difference was not that big, as the German worker had 78% of the value of machine tools invested per worker than the 1930 American worker and the composition of the stock of machine tools was similar.

- they don't know actually how to explain why US manufacturing productivity was greater than Europe's, since the difference is usually attributed to the difference in manufacturing type (mass production vs craft production) and they refuted precisely that conjecture in the paper.

How does the paper's data that Germany's stock of machine tools was 103% of the US's in 1945 while the value of that stock, using 1942 German prices, was ca. 90% of the US is made wrong by "understanding" after all?

If there is any way measure of a country's capital stock related to the production of war related equipment is the stock of machine tools installed in the country or it's value. Economists such as Galbraith made the point that Germany's war effort was inefficient based on precisely that data: Germany's stock of machine tools was 3 times the UK's machine tool stock but the output of military equipment was not much larger than the UK's.

The reason why it was not much larger was simply because the Wehrmacht had different needs than the British armed forces and they had different strategies and different perceptions of the required demands for equipment. Also, the civilian labor force in Germany was not 3 times larger but only 1.5 times larger than the UK's. So they lacked the labor force to utilize all that industrial capital stock.

I can only conclude that your definition of "understading" appears to be: "an interpretation of a paper that fits a US centric ideology of American exceptionalism." So the authors of the paper did not understand it either.
Yes, the childish reaction that Germany somehow got "cheated" out of winning
Nobody here has ever said that Germany got "cheated" out of winning.
and the inferiority complexes, vanities, and lack of critical thinking which drives such infantile reactions always astonishes me.
It astonishes you that there are people in the world that do not have a US centric ideology? 8O

It astonishes me that there exists such a US centric ideology in the first place, I discovered it's existence while talking in forums about WW2 back in 2009. Of course, a part of the ideology is to dehumanize the people who do not share it by labeling them as "people with inferiority complexes, vanity, lack of critical thinking".

Individually, I am just saying was that Germany's strategy in WW2 was rational and consistent with the country's resources vis their potential enemies. The fact that the Allies won was not due to Germany's faults but due to the incredible Allied effort (specially the USSR's) that resulted into their, very costly, victory. And I don't think you actually would disagree with me.
Last edited by Guaporense on 25 Aug 2016, 04:49, edited 2 times in total.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#344

Post by Guaporense » 25 Aug 2016, 02:58

Graniterail wrote:
Guaporense wrote:
...

In the Pacific War the US would defeat the IJN like it did historically in Midway and convince the Japanese to do an armistice which will preserve their fascist government but release back the colonies Japan occupied between December 41 and June 42. China will probably be divided into two: Japanese China and a "free" China. The communists will not take over China because the USSR would be defeated.
How exactly do the Germans 'defeat' the USSR? They might win more battlefield victories, push them back, sure.
What then? Do you want them to organize an Armistice with them? What are they going to offer them, they were waging a war of extermination. 'We're going to work your family to death and come back at you in 10 or 20 years when we've had a rest' is hardly a good negotiating position. Do you want them to drive to the A-A line? Do you care to explain how they're going to get the logistics to do that? Do they keep on going? Just what shape is this defeat of the USSR?
It's by assumption on this thread: the USSR are defeated, Germany occupied it's European parts, the Siberian parts continue to exist as an independent state. This state accepts that they lost the European territories and do a peace treaty.
The U.S wasn't going to accept anything but Japan's complete surrender.
What makes you think that?
Japan tried to fight an industrial total war & the U.S alone industrially outproduced Japan by 10-1.
That's difficult to measure: pre-war PPP GDP was 6-1, exchange rate GDP 11-1, Aircraft output was 4-1 and naval vessels, 5-1, in machine tools 4-1, but explosives it was 20-1.

Overall it's true the US would crush Japan eventually due to the difference in size and the fact Japan was particularly vulnerable because of it's dependency on imports and it's small landmass (if Japan's landmass were the size of Australia, it would be a whole different game). However, the reason why the US wouldn't force Japan into unconditional surrender is mainly because they wouldn't even formulate the notion in the first place: historically the Allies formulated unconditional surrender in 1943 after Stalingrad, at a point when Germany was lost the war in the Eastern front and hence was relatively easy for the WAllies to invade Europe and occupy Germany.
Even without the atom bomb the B-29's were about to collapse Japan's food distribution network OTL. The European & Pacific theatres were removed enough that Germany wouldn't have been able to save them.
Thing is, Japan was allied with the whole Axis block. So if Japan is attacked in this scenario the US will be at war with Fascist Europe. I think that the US's government will not want the war with Fascist Europe to get prolonged for a long time if the USSR collapses. Instead I believe they will try to wrap it up in 1942 up to early-to-mid 1943 by recovering their colonial territories and defeating the IJN in the pacific.

I also don't think the American public at the time was bloodthirsty enough to want the unconditional defeat and destruction of most of Japan's cities as OTL. If they defeat Japan's fleet in the Pacific and recover all the territories the Japanese invaded while imposing a favorable armistice would be considered a good deal for the public. In fact, US citizens would certainly prefer a quick peace about a year after Pearl Harbor over the government confiscating civilian resources to fight a war for several years because warmonger-FDR wanted do to so.
Once Japan is defeated, the Trans-Siberian & North-East Arctic routes are opened up to Lend Lease, there's no way the Germans are stopping those. As was done with the Persian railway, the Trans-Siberian would in time be expanded.
And so how lend-lease would make the Soviet Republic of Siberia raise 35 million soldiers out of it's 50 million inhabitants and declare war on Fascist Europe?
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#345

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Aug 2016, 04:05

Guaporense wrote: I am just saying was that Germany's strategy in WW2 was rational and consistent with the country's resources vis their potential enemies. The fact that the Allies won was not due to Germany's faults but due to the incredible Allied effort (specially the USSR's) that resulted into their, very costly, victory. And I don't think you actually would disagree with me.
I am astonished that anyone can say even that Germany had a 'strategy' never mind that it was rational. Starting a war against France, UK, USSR and USA and expecting to win is an act of utter stupidity. Germany only had one ace, a quick war to overwhelm her off-balance enemies. When this failed, first at the English Channel in 1940 and again in Russia in 1941, there was not a 'Plan B; in place for when the original knock-out blow failed to deliver. From 1943 onwards it was over and Allied victory was a question of when and not if. You may call the Allied victory costly but the German defeat was catastrophic.

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