Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#346

Post by T. A. Gardner » 25 Aug 2016, 06:12

On the above, the Germans simply didn't know when to stop. Hitler needed to stop once it became apparent that Britain wouldn't surrender and Germany couldn't invade immediately. That would have required a serious reassessment of strategic options and goals. Instead, the Germans made the assumption that they could hold Britain in a stalemate and invade Russia successfully.
That simply widened the war. Then the German U-boat campaign was sufficiently annoying to the US that they were defacto in the war too. Germany / Hitler declaring war unprepared to take on the US just nailed Germany's coffin shut.

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#347

Post by Politician01 » 25 Aug 2016, 10:21

Guaporense wrote: It astonishes me that there exists such a US centric ideology in the first place, I discovered it's existence while talking in forums about WW2 back in 2009. Of course, a part of the ideology is to dehumanize the people who do not share it by labeling them as "people with inferiority complexes, vanity, lack of critical thinking".

Individually, I am just saying was that Germany's strategy in WW2 was rational and consistent with the country's resources vis their potential enemies. The fact that the Allies won was not due to Germany's faults but due to the incredible Allied effort (specially the USSR's) that resulted into their, very costly, victory. And I don't think you actually would disagree with me.
To be fair each Allied country has these delusions of grandeur that their part in the war was the most decisive one and that they would have won it even without their Allies. Hell I talked to quite a many Britons who believe that Britain alone could have won the war by using millions of Indian soldiers that would have happily sacrificed their lives for their colonial overlords. :roll:

Just mentioning the fact that they needed help because they were to weak to defeat Germany on their own is heresy, arguing that they could have actually lost is even worse. Yet even though they try to ignore the facts no other conclusion can be reached if one is objective.

The Allied Coalition defeated the European Axis, take away one member of this coalition and the probabylity of victory diminishes rapidly.
If a rough estimate of the total power of the AC is 100 I would put the US at 40, the USSR at 40 and the British Empire at 20. This means that without Russia the Allied coalition is reduced to just 60% of its historical power. Until now noone could answer the question how the Allies are going to overcome an additonal 20 000+ AFV´s, 5 million + soldiers, 10 000+ aircraft, 200 000+ motor vehicles, 30 000+ artillery guns ect

Because this doesnt qualify as an answer at all:
Michael Kenny wrote: As Europe would slowly sink under the weight of all this extra equipment all the Allies would do is wait until the English channel lapped Berlin and launch the invasion straight into the bunker where Hitler was cowering-or just float A-bombs over with contact fuses.
The same applies to Russia. WIthout the Anglo´s they have just 40% of the OTL AC strenght and in the time period 41-45 would be confronted by an extra 10 000+ AFV´s, 30 000+ aircaft, 1.5 Million+ soldiers, 50 000+ artillery guns and 100 000+ motor vehicles while at the same time beeing deprived of some 20 000+ LL aircraft, 10 000+ LL tanks and 400 000+ LL trucks and jeeps. No Russophile could answer how on their own the Russians are going to resist these additional resources either.


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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#348

Post by Politician01 » 25 Aug 2016, 10:29

T. A. Gardner wrote: Do tell. Please, do regale us with exactly what technologies the West didn't have that Germany did or ones where Germany was more advanced in than the West in 1945 when the war ended. I can think of a few and the most important one, in terms of advance over US / British practice wasn't even part of Paperclip...
Do tell. Please, do regale us with exactly what technologies Germany didn't have that the WAllies did or ones where the WALLIES were more advanced in than Germany in 1945 when the war ended. I can think of a few like the nuke - and perhaps 5 other things and thats it.The Germans on the other hand had the technological advantage in at least 10 areas.

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#349

Post by Urmel » 25 Aug 2016, 10:53

Maybe instead of posting this in WI, there should be some lobbying that Marcus opens a 'Flugscheiben, Haunebu, and Hitler still lives on the Moon' subforum where the crazy stuff can go?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#350

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Aug 2016, 10:56

Politician01 wrote: The Germans on the other hand had the technological advantage in at least 10 areas.
Would that include horse harness, wood burning car engines and industrial oven design?

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#351

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Aug 2016, 11:23

Politician01 wrote:

The same applies to Russia. WIthout the Anglo´s they have just 40% of the OTL AC strenght and in the time period 41-45 would be confronted by an extra 10 000+ AFV´s, 30 000+ aircaft, 1.5 Million+ soldiers, 50 000+ artillery guns and 100 000+ motor vehicles while at the same time beeing deprived of some 20 000+ LL aircraft, 10 000+ LL tanks and 400 000+ LL trucks and jeeps. No Russophile could answer how on their own the Russians are going to resist these additional resources either.
Given they were caught completely off-guard in 1941 and fought back hard enough to start offensives in the same year I suspect the end result of the Germans reinforcing failure would be the same as in real life.

The only German 'parade' through Moscow.
17 July 1944 (1).jpg
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 25 Aug 2016, 11:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#352

Post by ljadw » 25 Aug 2016, 11:34

Even if Britain was defeated/remained neutral as would be the US, the USSR would defeat Germany .

Even if the USSR was defeated/remained neutral, Britain and the US would defeat Germany .

Even if the US remained neutral, Britain and the SU would defeat Germany .

One can't invent a situation where Germany could win .

Germany lost in WWI because it was to weak, it lost in WWII also because it was to weak .

80 million Germans never could dominate Europe .

antfreire
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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#353

Post by antfreire » 25 Aug 2016, 17:24

With what material would have GB and SU defeated Germany if USA remained neutral?

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Kingfish
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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#354

Post by Kingfish » 25 Aug 2016, 17:40

antfreire wrote:With what material would have GB and SU defeated Germany if USA remained neutral?
Same as in the OTL.
Lend lease was enacted on March 11th, 1941 a full 9 months before the Pearl Harbor attack
Prior to that the US swapped 50 old destroyers for land rights to British possessions.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#355

Post by antfreire » 25 Aug 2016, 17:50

I'm sorry but that does not answer my question. How could Bagration have happened without thouzands of trucks, jeeps and raildoad locomotives plus millions of gallons of fuel and oil? How could D Day have occurred without Uncle Sam?

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#356

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Aug 2016, 18:10

antfreire wrote:I'm sorry but that does not answer my question. How could Bagration have happened without thouzands of trucks, jeeps and raildoad locomotives plus millions of gallons of fuel and oil? How could D Day have occurred without Uncle Sam?
What locomotives arrived before Bagration?

How many of the '400,000 trucks and jeeps' were in use at the time of the massive Russian offensive in Aug 1943?

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#357

Post by ljadw » 25 Aug 2016, 18:33

antfreire wrote:I'm sorry but that does not answer my question. How could Bagration have happened without thouzands of trucks, jeeps and raildoad locomotives plus millions of gallons of fuel and oil? How could D Day have occurred without Uncle Sam?
US remaining neutral does not mean no US weapon deliveries to the USSR .

The "millions" of gallons of fuel and oil were insignificant compared to the Soviet oil production :during the war the SU had some 100 million tons of oil available .

No D Day does not mean that Germany would not be defeated .

The combination of Britain and the USSR would be too strong for Germany .

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#358

Post by Stiltzkin » 25 Aug 2016, 18:47

Given they were caught completely off-guard in 1941
They weren't, thats the myth still stuck in most peoples heads.

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#359

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Aug 2016, 18:58

Stiltzkin wrote:
They weren't, thats the myth still stuck in most peoples heads.
The only conspiracy theory that is actually less credible than Haunebu !

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Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#360

Post by Kingfish » 25 Aug 2016, 19:00

antfreire wrote:I'm sorry but that does not answer my question.
But it does. LL was delivering war material to the allies before the US was in the war, so why shouldn't we assume this would continue in a US neutral scenario?

One could argue that by removing the need to equip an ever expanding army, the US could have raised its contribution level of LL.
The flip side to that is a neutral US would probably not ramp up its industrial capacity.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

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