Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Locked
User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009, 03:35
Location: USA

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#391

Post by Guaporense » 26 Aug 2016, 05:05

Politician01 wrote:
Kingfish wrote:Why would it continue as in the OTL when the OTL is no longer in play?This is sounding an awful lot like so many WI where Germany just runs all on cylinders irrespective of the circumstances.
What exactly are you proposing? That the Germans would have produced less than OTL? WITH full acces to the resources of Eastern Europe, many of which they desperately lacked in OTL? WITH millions of men sent to the factories instead of beeing drafted? In fact im quite generous to assume the same production levels as OTL. With Eastern European resources and extra German manpower the numbers would have been most likely far higher.
Indeed. I estimated before a 2-3 fold increase in aircraft production from OTL and 5-8 fold increase in naval production, depending on the parameters used and the size of the ground forces.
OTL the Germans started to fully mobilise their war economy because the US entered the war.So there is no reason to assume that they would stop with the defeat of Russia.
Actually, it's true that Germany only focused on producing munitions after the failure of Barbarossa, but that's because they though that defeating the USSR would be easy, then in December 1941, after the failure to capture Moscow, ammunition production began to increase exponentially as ammunition production increased 10 fold in the 30 months between 4th quarter 1941 and 2nd quarter 1944.

I actually think that if the USSR is defeated by early 1942, both Germany and the WAllies would stop producing munitions. That's because the war would be over: the WAllies wouldn't want to engage directly the Wehrmacht just after they annihilated all of continental Europe's armed forces (including France and SU's) in short campaigns and very easily so.

Hitler already made it clear that their objectives did not involve invading the UK and so they did not represent actually a direct threat to the WAllies. Yes, he was very aggressive but it doesn't looks like he would want to attack the UK after invading the USSR.

While the WAllies would need to mobilize enormous armies of ca. 250 divisions and given their manpower slice of 64,000 men per division, that's 16,000,000 men in the ground forces to invade Europe through an amphibious invasion. A number of troops that would imply in a serious reduction in industrial output from OTL. They were conscious of that, therefore, they wouldn't be willing to sacrifice millions of lives to invade Europe just to save France and the Low Countries from occupation (it's not like they had such a big issue with Stalin's land being occupied or Croatia's).

I should also point out that the WAllies were democracies and the memory of WW1 made them very unwilling to commit to large scale ground warfare (one of the major reasons why the UK spent 40% of their war budget on strategic bombing was because they believed that they could substitute ground warfare for it, it didn't work out but it shows how unwilling the WAllies were to spend their citizens lives like ammunition).

Historically, the US's strategy was based on the USSR's survival: they cut Japan's oil supply just after Barbarossa, because that was the opening FDR looked for: knowing that Japan was allied with Germany, Germany would declare war on the US and he knew Japan would attack the US if they cut their oil supply. And he knew that the bulk of the Wehrmacht was in the Eastern front, which means that there was an "opening" the US could exploit for an amphibious invasion of Europe. If the USSR collapses, this opening vanishes. Also, FDR didn't declare war on Germany instead because he knew that the US public was not that much into getting drafted and sent overseas to die in battle, so he tried to induce into a situation to manipulate the public's opinion in favor of war. In other words, FDR knew that the war would only be winnable with the USSR in the game.

So overall, I would predict an armistice in Europe by early 1942 and the beginning of a Cold War between "Fascist Europe" and the "Free West".
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8269
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#392

Post by Michael Kenny » 26 Aug 2016, 05:53

Guaporense wrote: While the WAllies would need to mobilize enormous armies of ca. 250 divisions and given their manpower slice of 64,000 men per division, that's 16,000,000 men in the ground forces to invade Europe through an amphibious invasion. .
The usual rubbish where German conditions are changed to give them 10-20 fold advantage in everything and the stupid Allies are shown doing exactly the same as they did in real life.
Nothing better illustrates the blinkered mindset of those desperate to get at least a paper victory for the army they love so dearly.


Graniterail
Member
Posts: 73
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 10:00
Location: NZ

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#393

Post by Graniterail » 26 Aug 2016, 06:38

Stiltzkin wrote:
Given they were caught completely off-guard in 1941
They weren't, thats the myth still stuck in most peoples heads.
They were caught off guard. Yes the intelligence agencies knew, they were screaming it. Stalin (the stupid #@*%) didn't want to believe it. He hoarded the information, insisted on not 'provoking' Hitler.

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1165
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 13:29
Location: Coruscant

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#394

Post by Stiltzkin » 26 Aug 2016, 06:52

They were caught off guard
Read the sources I have posted, this myth is still present in peoples heads. They were not caught off guard. One does not simply catch a fully armed up military dictatorship with expansionistic ambitions, which participated in multiple conflicts/wars before the invasion (and initially annected more territory than the Nazis), fielding their best units against the Wehrmacht (Kiev special military district for example), off guard. They certainly did not predict the ways of attack or did not expect an Invasion of this magnitude (considering Germany was their trade partner, they allowed them to train and prepare in Kazan, together they divided eastern europe and Poland).
The Red Army doubled in size in the late 30s. By 41 their industry (which was primarily military oriented) increased by over 30,5%. The effects of the purges were already weakening (it was the expansion of the army that led to the catastrophic results not the purges, those were just restructures).
It is like saying North Korea is going to be caught off guard, perhaps they would be suprised that someone actually decided to attack them but ultimately all their forces are prepared and ready, always facing south.
Last edited by Stiltzkin on 26 Aug 2016, 20:35, edited 1 time in total.

Graniterail
Member
Posts: 73
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 10:00
Location: NZ

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#395

Post by Graniterail » 26 Aug 2016, 07:28

Guaporense wrote:
It's by assumption
Sublime understatement.
Graniterail wrote:
The U.S wasn't going to accept anything but Japan's complete surrender.
Guaporense wrote:
What makes you think that?
Utterly enraged U.S public opinion, the certainty of the military outcome if the U.S tried, the potential threat Japan faced if it were allowed to continue to build it's military with the resources from it's conquests & the advantages for the U.S Capitalist class in dominating the markets of East, South East & South Asia.
Guaporense wrote:
I also don't think the American public at the time was bloodthirsty enough to want the unconditional defeat and destruction of most of Japan's cities as OTL.. I think that the US's government will not want the war with Fascist Europe to get prolonged for a long time
Wishful thinking, completely out of touch with what attitudes the American public displayed. They were more inclined to fight Japan than Germany, they very eager to take the fight to Germany before it could build it's war industry further, plans for invading the continent in 1942 or 1943 were driven by these concerns.
Guaporense wrote:
In fact, US citizens would certainly prefer a quick peace about a year after Pearl Harbor over the government confiscating civilian resources to fight a war for several years because warmonger-FDR wanted do to so.

The U.S ran a more successful war economy than Germany and a civilian economy during the war. They were deeply concerned about overproduction causing a glut of essential primary commodities and manufactured goods in 1945. U.S citizens grew wealthier during the war, not poorer. Why on Earth would the U.S public believe FDR was a warmonger after Pearl Harbour? How do you think you get the world up to Operation Barbarossa without Japan being in the strategic trap it was by Mid-1941, pants deep in China without the Oil or the money to keep buying it to keep going that lead it to Pearl Harbour?
Guaporense wrote:
And so how lend-lease would make the Soviet Republic of Siberia raise 35 million soldiers out of it's 50 million inhabitants and declare war on Fascist Europe?
You still haven't argued how they even get to that point.

They broke the back of the German Army at Stalingrad with the Red Army numbering 6.6 million.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p=1383134

It really speaks far more to your attitude towards them than anything else to loosely use a figure of '35 million'. Every further advance the Germans made left them more logistically strained, the further they advanced the less force the Soviets needed to halt them. The Germans would never be able to bring back the military manpower they had on the Eastern Front into their industrial labour pool once they committed to Barbarossa. Stuck in Russia they would be unable to respond to rising Anglo-American industrial production even if the Russians were stalemated themselves.

That said, do you have any idea how much Soviet Labour was tied up in things like gathering Lumber to replace lost Coal sources (several million), how food shortages affected productivity?

Care to imagine the changing proportion of irrecoverable losses vs recoverable losses for the Red Army in combat on a hypothetical Eastern Front that somehow exists in 1946 when they begin to move from things like Phages to Penicillin & the Boron Carbide plated body armour the U.S was introducing or helicopter medivac, when they begin to use vehicles like the M75 or Kangaroo APC's en mass, which they could, unlike the Germans who would never have the oil to operate them?

Graniterail
Member
Posts: 73
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 10:00
Location: NZ

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#396

Post by Graniterail » 26 Aug 2016, 07:35

...
Stiltzkin wrote:
They certainly did not predict the ways of attack or did not expect an Invasion of this magnitude
I'm so glad we agree then.

User avatar
T. A. Gardner
Member
Posts: 3568
Joined: 02 Feb 2006, 01:23
Location: Arizona

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#397

Post by T. A. Gardner » 26 Aug 2016, 07:46

Guaporense wrote:I actually think that if the USSR is defeated by early 1942, both Germany and the WAllies would stop producing munitions. That's because the war would be over: the WAllies wouldn't want to engage directly the Wehrmacht just after they annihilated all of continental Europe's armed forces (including France and SU's) in short campaigns and very easily so.
I suppose that's why the US was engaged in the Manhattan project, development of the B-36 / intercontinental bomber, and other projects based on the potential fall of England or the USSR...

While the WAllies would need to mobilize enormous armies of ca. 250 divisions and given their manpower slice of 64,000 men per division, that's 16,000,000 men in the ground forces to invade Europe through an amphibious invasion. A number of troops that would imply in a serious reduction in industrial output from OTL. They were conscious of that, therefore, they wouldn't be willing to sacrifice millions of lives to invade Europe just to save France and the Low Countries from occupation (it's not like they had such a big issue with Stalin's land being occupied or Croatia's).
Where'd a "...slice of 64,000 men per division..." come from? That number borders on ludicrous. The US alone could have raised 300 divisions based on manpower available to them alone if they wanted to. All of those would have still been better equipped than the Wehrmacht who, even in this scenario, would be heavily dependent on captured equipment and production from occupied countries. Certainly, the US wouldn't be producing two regiment static infantry divisions equipped with obsolescent and captured equipment, lacking any mobility beyond walking, who's ranks are filled with overage and medically questionable troops.
So overall, I would predict an armistice in Europe by early 1942 and the beginning of a Cold War between "Fascist Europe" and the "Free West".
'

So, overall, I'd predict that the US and Britain nuke the living $h!+ out of Germany by early 1946 using ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, new generation bombers that fly at 30,000 feet + making German flak guns all but useless, and giving the Allies the means to produce a military RMA that leaves Germany a generation behind technologically causing them to lose or Hitler to be overthrown with a resulting negotiated surrender.

Politician01
Member
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 Sep 2011, 07:56

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#398

Post by Politician01 » 26 Aug 2016, 10:02

Kingfish wrote:Just so I understand this correctly, are you suggesting that after having conquered all of Europe, driven the English from the continent and the Russians from the war, the Germans would ramp up their production to match what was historically required for an opponent that was steamrolling entire army groups in the East?
Just so I understand this correctly, are you suggesting that after having gained acces to the resources of Eastern Europe, after beeing able to massively reduce the size of the army and invest milions of additional Germans into industry and while still at war with the Anglo´s, Germany will actually produce less than they did historically? Where they had a constant lack of vital resources and had to rely on POW´s and forced labourer which were at best half as efficent as German workers?

Politician01
Member
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 Sep 2011, 07:56

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#399

Post by Politician01 » 26 Aug 2016, 10:23

T. A. Gardner wrote: The US alone could have raised 300 divisions based on manpower available to them alone if they wanted to. All of those would have still been better equipped than the Wehrmacht
Yes they could - but then they would have to reduce their industrial workforce by several million which would lead to less industrial output which would lead to worse equipped divisions, which would have stood even less of a chance against the Germans than historically.
T. A. Gardner wrote: So, overall, I'd predict that the US and Britain nuke the living $h!+ out of Germany by early 1946 using ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, new generation bombers that fly at 30,000 feet + making German flak guns all but useless, and giving the Allies the means to produce a military RMA that leaves Germany a generation behind technologically causing them to lose or Hitler to be overthrown with a resulting negotiated surrender.
Please explain why and how WAllied leaders are going to keep their populations in the war for 4 years after the collapse of the USSR - 4 years in which they didnt achieve anything against Germany and if they tried would have sustained massive casualties.

Also by early 1946 the Allies had no ballistic missiles, and no bomber that couldy fly at over 30 000+ feet. Also the German 8.8 gun could fire over 30 000 feet and the German Wasserfall rocket would have made short work with these bombers.

And with this I see no further point of discussion the topic further. If the Soviets fold German victory is almost certain. I have provided enough facts, numbers and evidence to support this claim while my opponents countered with intellectual counterarguments of following calibre:
Michael Kenny wrote:Meowwww......... hisss..................hiss................

User avatar
Kingfish
Member
Posts: 3348
Joined: 05 Jun 2003, 17:22
Location: USA

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#400

Post by Kingfish » 26 Aug 2016, 11:35

Politician01 wrote:Just so I understand this correctly, are you suggesting that after having gained acces to the resources of Eastern Europe, after beeing able to massively reduce the size of the army
You're flip-flopping worse than a slinky going down a set of stairs.
Which scenario, out of the two you stated, do you want to discuss - Germany fields an additional 5 million soldiers or it massively reduces the size of the army?
and invest milions of additional Germans into industry and while still at war with the Anglo´s, Germany will actually produce less than they did historically?
Yes, for the simple and very obvious reason that the historical conditions that required such a massive output are no longer in play.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

Politician01
Member
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 Sep 2011, 07:56

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#401

Post by Politician01 » 26 Aug 2016, 13:56

Kingfish wrote:You're flip-flopping worse than a slinky going down a set of stairs.
Thats because you are deliberately misinterpreting what I wrote, or are unable to grasp its content.
Kingfish wrote: Which scenario, out of the two you stated, do you want to discuss - Germany fields an additional 5 million soldiers or it massively reduces the size of the army?
Both - in order for you to comprehend here a quick calculation: Germany has 3 million men in the East in mid 1942. 2 Million remain in the East as an occupation force, of the remaining million roughly 500 000 are released into industry and 500 000 are sent against the WAllies.

Industry gains 0.5 million
Wallies are faced by an extra 0.5 million

Over the next 3 years the Soviets would have killed or captured some 6 million soldiers. Since the fight against the WAllies is much less intense of these 6 million only 2 million are drafted the rest will be sent into industry.

Industry gains another 4 million workers
WAllies faced by an extra 2 million soldiers.

End result: in the 42-45 period the Germans invest 4.5 million extra workers into industry and 2.5 million extra soldiers into fighting the WAllies.
Kingfish wrote:Yes, for the simple and very obvious reason that the historical conditions that required such a massive output are no longer in play


Hm we have millions of aditional workers, a lot more resources than historically and we are fighting the whole Anglo world - but for some reason we are going to produce less stuff than historically :roll:

But ok Im going to humour you: Even if German industrial output of military hardware in 1943 and 1944 was 1/3 less than the OTL level - with more workers and with more resources but ok-, then the Allies would still face an extra 2.5+ million soldiers, and "only" an additonal
10 000+ AFV´s, 100 000+ motor vehicles, 20 000+ artillery guns and 5000+ aircraft more than historically.

BTW thats still rouhgly 1.5x more soldeirs, 2x as many AFv´s and 20% mor aircraft than they faced historically. And I would like to add that the very idea that the Germans would produce less if they had more workers and resources is just ludicrous and a desperate attempt to give the Anglo´s even the slightest chance of victory.

Politician01
Member
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 Sep 2011, 07:56

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#402

Post by Politician01 » 26 Aug 2016, 14:15

Kingfish wrote: the historical conditions are no longer in play
Hm the same would apply for the Allies if the USSR would fold in 1942. Why would they continue the war if the historical conditions are no longer in play?

User avatar
Kingfish
Member
Posts: 3348
Joined: 05 Jun 2003, 17:22
Location: USA

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#403

Post by Kingfish » 26 Aug 2016, 15:02

Politician01 wrote:
Kingfish wrote:You're flip-flopping worse than a slinky going down a set of stairs.
Thats because you are deliberately misinterpreting what I wrote, or are unable to grasp its content.
Kingfish wrote: Which scenario, out of the two you stated, do you want to discuss - Germany fields an additional 5 million soldiers or it massively reduces the size of the army?
Both - in order for you to comprehend here a quick calculation: Germany has 3 million men in the East in mid 1942. 2 Million remain in the East as an occupation force, of the remaining million roughly 500 000 are released into industry and 500 000 are sent against the WAllies.

Industry gains 0.5 million
Wallies are faced by an extra 0.5 million

Over the next 3 years the Soviets would have killed or captured some 6 million soldiers. Since the fight against the WAllies is much less intense of these 6 million only 2 million are drafted the rest will be sent into industry.

Industry gains another 4 million workers
WAllies faced by an extra 2 million soldiers.

End result: in the 42-45 period the Germans invest 4.5 million extra workers into industry and 2.5 million extra soldiers into fighting the WAllies.
OK, let me amend my previous question: which scenario, out of the two you stated, do you want to discuss - Germany fields an additional 5 million soldiers or it fields an additional 2.5 million soldiers?
Hm we have millions of aditional workers, a lot more resources than historically and we are fighting the whole Anglo world - but for some reason we are going to produce less stuff than historically :roll:
Yes, because (once again) the historical need to produce at that level is not in play.
You do realize that the vast majority of those 5 million soldiers and sundries were created to make up for the very heavy losses sustained on the Ost Front? We are, after all, talking about a time frame where Germany was losing entire Corp, Armies and Army groups.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

Politician01
Member
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 Sep 2011, 07:56

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#404

Post by Politician01 » 26 Aug 2016, 17:17

Kingfish wrote:Yes, because (once again) the historical need to produce at that level is not in play. You do realize that the vast majority of those 5 million soldiers and sundries were created to make up for the very heavy losses sustained on the Ost Front? We are, after all, talking about a time frame where Germany was losing entire Corp, Armies and Army groups.
And without an Eastern Front the Germans would have let these 6 million just sit idly by not making them into soliders and not sending them into industry - no matter how the war against the Wallies would have developed. :roll:

And I hate to repeat myself but: Hm the same would apply for the Allies if the USSR would fold in 1942. Why would they continue the war if the historical conditions are no longer in play? We are, after all, talking about a time frame where the WAllies were relying on the Soviets to inflict and absorb the greatest losses of the war.

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 6410
Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Western Allies liberating Europe without the USSR

#405

Post by Richard Anderson » 26 Aug 2016, 18:25

Guaporense wrote:The paper's conclusions are the following:

- the idea that Europe had a different system of manufacturing than the US at the time (1930's-1940's) is wrong.
Good to see you have some reading comprehension.
- instead, they used the same technologies and had similar distribution of stocks of industrial machines of different types.
Nope. Then it all goes south again.

"This process of catching-up, however, was dramatically reversed during World War II. Over a period of no more than four years the American stock expanded by over eighty percent and growth was markedly concentrated in key categories of mass production equipment. It appears that it was only in this period that mass production machinery came to truly dominate US metal-working. German investment, albeit moving in the same direction, failed to match the new intensity of American commitment to mass production in some key machinery classes."

In other words, the end result was a dissimilar distribution of industrial machines of different types.
- there was some technological difference in 1930, when the US had relatively more modern types of machines, between 1930 and 1945, the technological difference decreased, however. But even in 1930 the difference was not that big, as the German worker had 78% of the value of machine tools invested per worker than the 1930 American worker and the composition of the stock of machine tools was similar.
And now you're back to rewriting what your "citation" actually says. Haven't you learned yet?

"For 1930, we find a remarkable similarity in machine to worker ratios between Germany and the United States. There are differences in certain key areas. However, the US stock of metal-working tools is not yet distinguished by a clear commitment to mass production technology. For the period after 1935, until the early 1940s, our data suggest a remarkable degree of convergence. The American stock stagnated. In some areas, there was disinvestment. And the average age of machinery rose dramatically. By contrast, Germany entered a period of rapid catch-up, which appears to have continued into the early years of the war. By 1940, German metal-working came close to matching its American counterpart in terms of the number of workers employed and the quantity and types of machines installed. German machines were, on average, far younger."

Your statement, if correctly written to summarize the paper, would be,

"there was little technological difference in 1930, when the US had relatively more machines, between 1935 and the early 1940s, the American stock stagnated, however. Meanwhile, Germany invested heavily and caught up to the United States by 1940."

Then of course, we're back to the previous passage. So, instead of your non sequitur "But even in 1930 the difference was not that big, as the German worker had 78% of the value of machine tools invested per worker than the 1930 American worker and the composition of the stock of machine tools was similar." it should read,

"However, in the next four years American investment concentrated in key areas of machine tool production, which German investment failed to match."
- they don't know actually how to explain why US manufacturing productivity was greater than Europe's, since the difference is usually attributed to the difference in manufacturing type (mass production vs craft production) and they refuted precisely that conjecture in the paper.
Sigh. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

"We find it more convincing to explain the persistent productivity differentials between the US and Germany in terms of the more general
differences between the American and European economies. In particular, we would invoke the abundance of low cost energy sources and the larger scale of production in US industry...Though American and German metal-working firms used similar numbers of essentially similar machines, it is more than possible that the American machines were more productive because they tended to be bigger, because they were more commonly equipped with direct electric drives and because they were employed on larger production runs. There is strong evidence showing a substantial difference both in the installed horsepower in American and German industry and the quantity of electric power actually consumed in manufacturing...German industry was well-equipped both with labour and machines, but both its workers and its machines made do with less power. There is also good evidence to suggest that batch sizes in American production were significantly larger, across all scales of production. A similar number of machines of similar type could thus be employed more productively in the US. This in turn would have warranted the purchase of machines that were larger and more high-powered."

That actually looks like a reasonable explanation from them as to why US manufacturing productivity was greater than Europe's", i.e. Germany's.
How does the paper's data that Germany's stock of machine tools was 103% of the US's in 1945 while the value of that stock, using 1942 German prices, was ca. 90% of the US is made wrong by "understanding" after all?
You might try writing a coherent question first. Then you might notice the "paper's data" actually indicates your cherished metric of "Germany's stock of machine tools" isn't a reasonable metric at all.
If there is any way measure of a country's capital stock related to the production of war related equipment is the stock of machine tools installed in the country or it's value. Economists such as Galbraith made the point that Germany's war effort was inefficient based on precisely that data: Germany's stock of machine tools was 3 times the UK's machine tool stock but the output of military equipment was not much larger than the UK's.
Yet again, the paper actually says the opposite. Machine tools "were a technology proudly displayed and easily transferred from one place
to another. Despite their iconic status, they may not, therefore, hold the key to explaining the trans-Atlantic productivity gap."
The reason why it was not much larger was simply because the Wehrmacht had different needs than the British armed forces and they had different strategies and different perceptions of the required demands for equipment. Also, the civilian labor force in Germany was not 3 times larger but only 1.5 times larger than the UK's. So they lacked the labor force to utilize all that industrial capital stock.
Sorry, but that "reason" is simply your invention, unsupported by anything in the paper. On the other hand, yes, indeed, labor remains an important factor - much more so than machine tool stocks, RM expenditures, or differing needs and strategies.
I can only conclude that your definition of "understading" appears to be: "an interpretation of a paper that fits a US centric ideology of American exceptionalism." So the authors of the paper did not understand it either.
So then, why the continued trolling on this non-issue of "American exceptionalism"? In case you haven't noticed, you and your ilk are the only ones to keep bringing it up.
Nobody here has ever said that Germany got "cheated" out of winning.
I see you don't read posts very carefully.
It astonishes you that there are people in the world that do not have a US centric ideology? 8O
Yes, given that you are the one bringing it up, rather than using factual information, actually supported by the "citations" you misquote.
It astonishes me that there exists such a US centric ideology in the first place, I discovered it's existence while talking in forums about WW2 back in 2009.
Which forum would that be? Not this one certainly.
Of course, a part of the ideology is to dehumanize the people who do not share it by labeling them as "people with inferiority complexes, vanity, lack of critical thinking".
Um, no, sorry, if that was so I would be dehumanizing much of the current American electorate.
Individually, I am just saying was that Germany's strategy in WW2 was rational and consistent with the country's resources vis their potential enemies. The fact that the Allies won was not due to Germany's faults but due to the incredible Allied effort (specially the USSR's) that resulted into their, very costly, victory. And I don't think you actually would disagree with me.
Yes, I would agree with your second sentence. However, if I were to agree with the first, then I would have to argue America's strategy in the GWOT has been rational and consistent with the country's resources, which is incorrect and unsupportable. Fundamentally, the willful choice to go to war is irrational and inconsistent with an efficient use of a country's resources. War is destructive rather than constructive.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Locked

Return to “What if”