How to get from Berlin to Baku

[thaddeus_c]

How to get from Berlin to Baku? (WWII)

probably best route is Axis Turkey but there were good reasons they wanted to remain neutral.

what if Germany choose to bypass Northern Caucasus and try to capture the old Transcaucasian Federation of Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan?

what type of flotilla would they need to assemble? even assuming a large reliance on air transport AND (big if) eliminating most of Soviet Black Sea fleet.

[T. A. Gardner]

The "best" way would have been for Germany (and her allies) to put an actual, real, fleet in the Black Sea and use a combination of amphibious and land warfare. Of course, that isn't going to happen either...

[thaddeus_c]

The "best" way would have been for Germany (and her allies) to put an actual, real, fleet in the Black Sea and use a combination of amphibious and land warfare. Of course, that isn't going to happen either...

recall later in the war the KM had requirement that the smaller Elektroboot could be partially disassembled and transported overland? whereas the transport of Type II u-boats to Black Sea was cumbersome and (IIRC) did not occur until 1942.

they could have moved u-boats, MFPs/AFPs, and fast attack boats as well as arming any commercial ships they moved into Black Sea and conducted minelaying at start of Barbarossa instead of leaving burden to LW.

one thing for certain, the Soviets have finite number of ships.

[T. A. Gardner]

What Germany would need in the Black Sea were about a dozen destroyers (yes, Romania has several to add to that), and 3 or 4 heavy cruisers along with some sort of merchant ship carrier conversion or two. That's a minimum. Without a "real" surface fleet they really can't conduct big amphibious operations. With one, they could and the Red Navy wouldn't be able to interfere with any real chance of winning without prohibitive losses.

[thaddeus_c]

What Germany would need in the Black Sea were about a dozen destroyers (yes, Romania has several to add to that), and 3 or 4 heavy cruisers along with some sort of merchant ship carrier conversion or two. That's a minimum. Without a "real" surface fleet they really can't conduct big amphibious operations. With one, they could and the Red Navy wouldn't be able to interfere with any real chance of winning without prohibitive losses.

that won't be happening, first the Turks won't let them be so blatant and second it would tip the Soviets.

they had ships like state yacht Grille http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ship ... story.html which a sister ship was gifted to Turkish leader, maybe they could give one to Tsar of Bulgaria?

the commercial ships converted to wartime use like ferries http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ship ... index.html

they did fair job of suppressing the Soviet fleet, add larger minelayer fleet thru clandestine means?

[BDV]

But why would one have to get from Berlin to Baku? If Soviets are crushed, by rail; if Soviets are not crushed, this is worrying about getting the dinner served on the Titanic.

[thaddeus_c]

But why would one have to get from Berlin to Baku? If Soviets are crushed, by rail; if Soviets are not crushed, this is worrying about getting the dinner served on the Titanic.

different concept, invade across Black Sea to try and capture Transcaucasia (inconveniently located but smaller than Yugoslavia.)

a few points (not in particular order)

eliminating Soviet Black Sea fleet would in and of itself be worthwhile project.

fleet IF eliminated would/could not be replaced by Lend Lease or Soviet production.

Black Sea route half distance of land route

[BDV]

different concept, invade across Black Sea to try and capture Transcaucasia (inconveniently located but smaller than Yugoslavia.)

Possible to be done as threat(IMO even desirable), impossible to be done as main attack.

eliminating Soviet Black Sea fleet would in and of itself be worthwhile project.

fleet IF eliminated would/could not be replaced by Lend Lease or Soviet production.

Black Sea route half distance of land route

Yes.

Any serious attacker of Soviet Union would pay great attention to Black Sea matters. The (lack of) attention paid by the German planner to the Black Sea issue speaks for itself. Done right, suppression of Soviet Black Sea Fleet allows the Axis to float material from Ruhr all the way down to Rostov and/or Poti, allowing rail assets to be used in the Oka-Volga basin activities.

[magicdragon]

what type of flotilla would they need to assemble? even assuming a large reliance on air transport AND (big if) eliminating most of Soviet Black Sea fleet.

S-Boats - It would have been logical to deploy naval forces in the Black Sea right from the beginning of Barbarossa built around around an S-Boat force initially "sold" to Rumania before hostilities - then taken over when operations began.

U Boat - The more difficult area would have been deploying a U Boat force - one option would have been to revive the UB1 design from WWI because they were designed to be transferred by rail -to supplement the larger Type II U Boats that were deployed but not until 1942

http://world-war-one.net/coastal-submarines-ub-class/

Destroyers - Buy existing Rumanian vessels in exchange for other types of German weapons - 2 vessels of the Regele Ferdinand class and the 2 vessels of the Mărăști class.

Maritime Air Strike Force - Built around a joint Gruppen HE 111/SM 79 torpedo bomber force.

But accept this force is an effective irritant to the Black Sea fleet but does allow for major operations.

[thaddeus_c]

different concept, invade across Black Sea to try and capture Transcaucasia (inconveniently located but smaller than Yugoslavia.)

Possible to be done as threat(IMO even desirable), impossible to be done as main attack.

eliminating Soviet Black Sea fleet would in and of itself be worthwhile project.

fleet IF eliminated would/could not be replaced by Lend Lease or Soviet production.

Black Sea route half distance of land route

Any serious attacker of Soviet Union would pay great attention to Black Sea matters. The (lack of) attention paid by the German planner to the Black Sea issue speaks for itself. Done right, suppression of Soviet Black Sea Fleet allows the Axis to float material from Ruhr all the way down to Rostov and/or Poti, allowing rail assets to be used in the Oka-Volga basin activities.

there are several parts

eliminating Soviet Black Sea fleet, all the benefits already mentioned plus there might be a test bed of guided munitions earlier.

even IF the oilfields of Baku are not captured intact the Soviets are deprived of them.

capturing Transcaucasia would provide a land bridge to Iran.

[T. A. Gardner]

I could see Germany assembling a Black Seas fleet that would have been at least credible if they really put their minds to doing it. However, it would be quite a stretch to see them actually try this.

First, they manufacture the necessary armament, machinery, and other components for say 8 to 10 1500 to 2000 ton destroyers in Germany and ship this by river to Romania where they assemble the ships in upgraded shipyards using a combination of German and Romanian labor. To add to this they bring in some of the captured Yugoslav navy, assuming Turkey will let them pass the Bosporus.

They get say two or three large merchant hulls in the range of about 8 to 10,000 tons and convert them into aircraft carriers. The conversion doesn't have to be extensive. Mostly its a flight deck, maybe a partial hanger, and room for fuel and stores along with some defensive weapons and the necessary stuff to conduct flight ops. They could have used Japanese technology for this. All they'd need are the drawings and specs. That gives them, say, 60-ish aircraft for covering their fleet. Maybe half and half fighters and dive bombers or torpedo / attack planes. I'd think a torpedo / attack aircraft would be the better choice given the Red Navy having no dedicated air cover itself.

That gives them the fleet they need to counter the Red Navy. They could use regular merchants with MFP and Siebel ferries to move the troops and their equipment.

This would take about 18 to 24 months to pull off, and a really dedicated effort. So, the earliest they could do such an operation would have been about early 1943...

[thaddeus_c]

I could see Germany assembling a Black Seas fleet that would have been at least credible if they really put their minds to doing it. However, it would be quite a stretch to see them actually try this.

First, they manufacture the necessary armament, machinery, and other components for say 8 to 10 1500 to 2000 ton destroyers in Germany and ship this by river to Romania where they assemble the ships in upgraded shipyards using a combination of German and Romanian labor.

They get say two or three large merchant hulls in the range of about 8 to 10,000 tons and convert them into aircraft carriers. The conversion doesn't have to be extensive. I'd think a torpedo / attack aircraft would be the better choice given the Red Navy having no dedicated air cover itself.

That gives them the fleet they need to counter the Red Navy. They could use regular merchants with MFP and Siebel ferries to move the troops and their equipment.

while what you describe would be quite effective it would be beyond what KM could plausibly assemble and might (or probably) attract Soviet attention?

previously suggested ferries (were fairly fast at over 20 knts. and could carry over 400 mines) and MFPs/AFPs, could have built larger AFPs as they already approached 400 tonnes?

still seems the proper force, and one they should have planned to move to Black Sea, was u-boats and fast attack boats. they had grand total of 6 u-boats and 10 s-boats! what if they just matched Soviet force of 40 submarines?

[T. A. Gardner]

The problem with that is that submarines and S-Boats are not all that useful for attacking warships. They are good as spoilers and attacking merchant shipping. The AFP (the Allies called these "F-Lighters" in the Med), are gunboats and can't stand up to actual warships like a destroyer. They'd be blown out of the water.
None of that gives the Germans naval dominance. It gives them a raiding force at most.

Soviet subs are, putting it mildly, a joke. They're a bigger threat to themselves and neutral shipping than the enemy almost. The Red Navy in the Black Sea was relatively weak, particularly after it got worked over by the Luftwaffe. The Soviets didn't add any new large naval units to their inventory either.

The KM needs an actual fleet to prevent the Red Navy from interfering with their operations. S-boats and U-boats won't cut it. They can't compete with destroyers and cruisers.

[thaddeus_c]

The problem with that is that submarines and S-Boats are not all that useful for attacking warships. They are good as spoilers and attacking merchant shipping. The AFP (the Allies called these "F-Lighters" in the Med), are gunboats and can't stand up to actual warships..

Soviet subs are, putting it mildly, a joke. They're a bigger threat to themselves and neutral shipping than the enemy almost. The Red Navy in the Black Sea was relatively weak, particularly after it got worked over by the Luftwaffe. The Soviets didn't add any new large naval units to their inventory either.

The KM needs an actual fleet to prevent the Red Navy from interfering with their operations. S-boats and U-boats won't cut it. They can't compete with destroyers and cruisers.

only mentioned AFPs/MFPs for use as armed transports and the fact that they were simple designs that could be fabricated in captured Soviet yards at Mykolaiv in larger versions. while not to be used against proper Soviet warships they were heavily armed (relatively) they would have been able to defend themselves if Soviets started replacing their diminished fleet with converted raiders.

mentioned Soviet subs only for comparison of numbers, they had approx. 40 vs. 6 for Germans, my understanding the readiness of entire Soviet fleet(s) is questionable?

we cannot know how many Soviet ships would be sunk in surprise raids at start of Barbarossa? only that it would be greater than zero sunk historically.

recall the Soviet Baltic fleet was quickly bottled up at Kronstadt/Leningrad but was able to fire on Germans. in the Black Sea at Novorossiysk they would not be able to interfere with operations at Poti and Batumi.

in other words Germany WAS able to suppress Soviet fleet to large extent historically why not double down on what actually worked and could be done quickly and in clandestine manner?

[BDV]

I was wondering whether Romania can purchase say 2 small destroyers and 4 seagoing subs from the French.

This would require Greek cooperation, so it may be that Musso get told to lay low on Balkans.