How to get from Berlin to Baku

[T. A. Gardner]

The problem with that is that submarines and S-Boats are not all that useful for attacking warships. They are good as spoilers and attacking merchant shipping. The AFP (the Allies called these "F-Lighters" in the Med), are gunboats and can't stand up to actual warships..

Soviet subs are, putting it mildly, a joke. They're a bigger threat to themselves and neutral shipping than the enemy almost. The Red Navy in the Black Sea was relatively weak, particularly after it got worked over by the Luftwaffe. The Soviets didn't add any new large naval units to their inventory either.

The KM needs an actual fleet to prevent the Red Navy from interfering with their operations. S-boats and U-boats won't cut it. They can't compete with destroyers and cruisers.

only mentioned AFPs/MFPs for use as armed transports and the fact that they were simple designs that could be fabricated in captured Soviet yards at Mykolaiv in larger versions. while not to be used against proper Soviet warships they were heavily armed (relatively) they would have been able to defend themselves if Soviets started replacing their diminished fleet with converted raiders.

mentioned Soviet subs only for comparison of numbers, they had approx. 40 vs. 6 for Germans, my understanding the readiness of entire Soviet fleet(s) is questionable?

we cannot know how many Soviet ships would be sunk in surprise raids at start of Barbarossa? only that it would be greater than zero sunk historically.

recall the Soviet Baltic fleet was quickly bottled up at Kronstadt/Leningrad but was able to fire on Germans. in the Black Sea at Novorossiysk they would not be able to interfere with operations at Poti and Batumi.

in other words Germany WAS able to suppress Soviet fleet to large extent historically why not double down on what actually worked and could be done quickly and in clandestine manner?

In the Black Sea the Soviet submarine record was:

1941: Three merchants, all Turkish, for 15,098 tons.
1942: Thirteen merchants for 12,226 tons including 8 Turkish coasters and two Turkish tug boats.
1943: Sixteen merchants for 30,880 tons, including one tug, five MFP, and 7 Turkish coaster merchant ships.
1944: 1 MFP, 1 MTB, one tug, 2 Turkish merchants.

If you look at the whole Soviet submarine force they sank about 108 ships of various sizes for the loss of at least 108 submarines. the largest warship sunk was a minesweeper. That includes a good number of neutral merchant ships...

Jürg Meister, Soviet Warships of the Second World War.

Like I said, the Red Navy's submarine force could be easily argued to have lost their war at sea.

[thaddeus_c]

Like I said, the Red Navy's submarine force could be easily argued to have lost their war at sea.

HA!

do recall in The Devils Alliance about German-Soviet collaboration that KM had considered obtaining Soviet subs early in the war but dismissed the idea when they were deemed unsafe.