German Tangier WWII

[Kingfish]

Possibly because planning for Seelowe apparently never went to far,
as the lack of necessary landing barges/ cargo ships, and the non-existence of warships capable of at least holding the line against Royal Navy foretalled disaster for a seaborne invasion attempt. An airborn invasion would be conceivable up to a point, but that point was hopelessly low in terms of men and materiel capable of being transported and supplied via air-route, even for short amounts of time (1-2 weeks).

All this is true, but I don't see it being so readily apparent to the Germans immediately following Fall Rot.

In any event, even if the Germans did come to that realization early on their attention would have simply shifted in the direction Hitler wanted to go all along - Russia. The Med was never on their front burner. They didn't even want to go into Yugoslavia, let alone Greece and Crete.

[alecsandros]

Assuming Spanish cooperation, German guns (what caliber?) may have been firing on Gibraltar in just 2 weeks may have been possible.

I would imagine at least 280mm... The long-barrelled ones, with range of 40km or so...

It was (in bad state, by the way, as in general was all the railway equipment in Spain), but Spanish rail gauge was different from that of French railway. If you want to carry the heavy artillery by rail you will have to regauge the line all the way from the border with France to Gibraltar. I doubt the Germans could do it in 2 weeks.

In that case, any transport would be required to stop at the junction, and each cart or wagon individualy hauled (by a powerfull crane, that would be required to be brought there in the first place..) onto another set of wheels. For big artillery pieces, that would be much more complicated, with each wheel being required to be shifed onto another strut (sp?) to allow movement... A big pain.

[quoter="alecsandros"]As it has been repeteadly posted in other threads, there was not much Allied shipping going through the Strait, it went round Africa, so there is little to be gained there by the Germans simply by attacking and retreating.[/quote]
Yes, round Cape Horn and through Suez Canal.
I'm thinking military supplies - such as the convoys for the relief of Malta, or for reinforcing Alexandria and Tobruk (until 1942) where usualy done from Gibraltar...
Blocking or damaging the strait (if it was possible ?) could cut that type of reinforcement...

Of course another British base could be set up in the Atlantic islands, but they wouldn't have direct Med access to support rapid Mediteranean convoys...

[alecsandros]

In any event, even if the Germans did come to that realization early on their attention would have simply shifted in the direction Hitler wanted to go all along - Russia. The Med was never on their front burner. They didn't even want to go into Yugoslavia, let alone Greece and Crete.

they surely didn't want to go in the Balkans... but they did... They also didn't, but realy didn't want to go to North Africa... But they did... So, perhaps IF a big enough pay off would offer itself, or if the resolve of Hitler onto sealing Gibraltar would have been big enough to postpone Barbarossa... MAYBE the resources would have been made available.

However, I don't see permanent German occupation of Gibraltar area (not the Rock - the Rock may hold out for months, maybe 1 year). It was too far, too costly... But a rapid 3 to 6 months operation, intended on destroying as much facilities as possible, and possibly mining/ demolishing the entire Gibraltar coastline could be feasible...

[Kingfish]

they surely didn't want to go in the Balkans... but they did... They also didn't, but realy didn't want to go to North Africa... But they did...

They did for reasons outside of their control. I'm just not seeing a similar 'surprise' coming out of the Iberian peninsula.

If anything, the status quo worked to all parties favor - Spain keeps its neutrality and assistance, Britain keeps its strategic position, and Germany stays out of a theater it doesn't really want to be in.

[alecsandros]

Some say leaving Gibraltar in use for Britain was a grave mistake to make when trying to occupy Egypt/other parts of NOrth Africa.
Gibraltar successfully resupplied British forces in critical moments of 1941 and 1942...

[Ironmachine]

Assuming Spanish cooperation, German guns (what caliber?) may have been firing on Gibraltar in just 2 weeks may have been possible.

I would imagine at least 280mm... The long-barrelled ones, with range of 40km or so...

German 280mm guns in just 2 weeks? Not possible even with Spanish cooperation, much less so without it.

It was (in bad state, by the way, as in general was all the railway equipment in Spain), but Spanish rail gauge was different from that of French railway. If you want to carry the heavy artillery by rail you will have to regauge the line all the way from the border with France to Gibraltar. I doubt the Germans could do it in 2 weeks.

In that case, any transport would be required to stop at the junction, and each cart or wagon individualy hauled (by a powerfull crane, that would be required to be brought there in the first place..) onto another set of wheels. For big artillery pieces, that would be much more complicated, with each wheel being required to be shifed onto another strut (sp?) to allow movement... A big pain.

And those new sets of wheels in Spanish gauge are going to come from... nowhere. Spain did not have them, neither did the Germans. If you need to build them, that's another delay for the operation.

As it has been repeteadly posted in other threads, there was not much Allied shipping going through the Strait, it went round Africa, so there is little to be gained there by the Germans simply by attacking and retreating.

Yes, round Cape Horn and through Suez Canal.
I'm thinking military supplies - such as the convoys for the relief of Malta, or for reinforcing Alexandria and Tobruk (until 1942) where usualy done from Gibraltar...
Blocking or damaging the strait (if it was possible ?) could cut that type of reinforcement...
Of course another British base could be set up in the Atlantic islands, but they wouldn't have direct Med access to support rapid Mediteranean convoys....

Are you sure that the convoys for reinforcing Alexandria and Tobruk came from Gibraltar? AFAIK, those for Tobruk came from Alexandria (see for example https://www.awm.gov.au/sites/default/files/p_gill.pdf and http://naval-history.net/xDKEscorts00Index.htm) and those for Alexandria came round Africa. It certainly makes much more sense that going through the Mediterranean. So the only effect of a blockade of the strait would be making the supply of Malta more difficult, but the reinforcement of the island would not be cut as it was also supplied from Alexandria.

Gibraltar successfully resupplied British forces in critical moments of 1941 and 1942...

Other than Malta, can you post your known examples of British forces in the Mediterranean being resupplied from Gibraltar in 1941 and 1942?

[alecsandros]

Other than Malta, can you post your known examples of British forces in the Mediterranean being resupplied from Gibraltar in 1941 and 1942?

Hard one..
Doing some digging,
I found "UGS " convoys from Chesapeake Bay to Gibraltar, and from Gibraltar to North Africa (Nov 1942 - onwards , so this is contemporary with Torch landings - so not realy relevant for our scenario)

there were also some "OG" convoys (from Liverpool, through Gibraltar, to Port Said), but those were done in 1939 and 1940.

Other then that, Malta convoys... 1941 and 1942. NOthing else that I could find...

[Kingfish]

Some say leaving Gibraltar in use for Britain was a grave mistake to make when trying to occupy Egypt/other parts of NOrth Africa.
Gibraltar successfully resupplied British forces in critical moments of 1941 and 1942...

But that is irrelevant to this WI since it is timed at least 6 months before the first German troops were to ever set foot on African soil, and long before there was any thought of pushing eastward to the Suez.

[Kingfish]

Other than Malta, can you post your known examples of British forces in the Mediterranean being resupplied from Gibraltar in 1941 and 1942?

Hard one..
Doing some digging,
I found "UGS " convoys from Chesapeake Bay to Gibraltar, and from Gibraltar to North Africa (Nov 1942 - onwards , so this is contemporary with Torch landings - so not realy relevant for our scenario)

there were also some "OG" convoys (from Liverpool, through Gibraltar, to Port Said), but those were done in 1939 and 1940.

Other then that, Malta convoys... 1941 and 1942. NOthing else that I could find...

Unless I am mistaken the last convoy to sail the full length was the 'Tiger' convoy just before Battleaxe.

[alecsandros]

Some say leaving Gibraltar in use for Britain was a grave mistake to make when trying to occupy Egypt/other parts of NOrth Africa.
Gibraltar successfully resupplied British forces in critical moments of 1941 and 1942...

But that is irrelevant to this WI since it is timed at least 6 months before the first German troops were to ever set foot on African soil, and long before there was any thought of pushing eastward to the Suez.

Good point.
Now, to be true to the spirit of the topic, what if the Italians would be asking for help in early 1941, and Hitler would decide to help them in another way ?
More exactly, to take Gibraltar strait, and to use it for crossing troops into North Africa , and their supplies ?

Could it be done ? Could such a garrison be supplied and kept running ?
Could Rommell go through Tangier and help the Italian forces ?

[Ironmachine]

Now, to be true to the spirit of the topic, what if the Italians would be asking for help in early 1941, and Hitler would decide to help them in another way ?
More exactly, to take Gibraltar strait, and to use it for crossing troops into North Africa , and their supplies ?

Could it be done ? Could such a garrison be supplied and kept running ?
Could Rommell go through Tangier and help the Italian forces ?

It would be a hell of a way to do something that was done much more easily in OTL. Even if feasible, I think it would not be worth the effort. Anyway, I'm quite sure it can't be done, and certainly not in time to be of any help.

[Kingfish]

Could it be done ? Could such a garrison be supplied and kept running ?
Could Rommell go through Tangier and help the Italian forces ?

Impossible.
Tangiers is over 2,500km away from Tripoli, and that is by the shortest overland route. However, that route requires driving across Algeria and Tunisia, both Vichy French possessions.

Either the Germans coerce / force their way through, and thereby piss off the French, or they divert down the Atlantic coast and push across Mauritania, Mali and Nigeria before coming up into Libya. I don't think such a feat would have been possible if this were the only operation the Germans launched in all of WW2.

Besides, if the Italians need German assistance why not disembark in Tripoli?

[Ironmachine]

Tangiers is over 2,500km away from Tripoli, and that is by the shortest overland route. However, that route requires driving across Algeria and Tunisia, both Vichy French possessions.
Either the Germans coerce / force their way through, and thereby piss off the French, or they divert down the Atlantic coast and push across Mauritania, Mali and Nigeria before coming up into Libya.

Either alternative also requires driving across Spanish Morocco. And probably through peninsular Spain to reach Tangiers. So either the Germans convince Spain to join the war, something they were unable to do in OTL, or an invasion of Spain would be necessary, adding to the problems of this scenario.

[alecsandros]

Seems like the only viable alternative would be to heavily alter the German operational timeline for 1941. Postponing Barbarossa, using a substantial number of divisions and airwings to drive through Spain (Franco's generals would be highly unlikely to budge), supplying Op. Felix, destroying Gibraltar port facilities...
Alot of time and effort, I think minimum 3 months, with as much as 6 possible.

This would probably imply a completely different war. Probably Franco eliminated from power, civil unrest in Spain... numerous divisions required for "pacification"... Divisions that wouldn't be available elsewhere (in the east).
Stalin would be given another reprieve, at leats until spring 1942 (it would be unlikely for HItler to order Barbarossa in mid-autumn).

Britain would lose the western entry in the MEd, BUT that would also mean the Gibraltar fleet (force H) to be moved somewhere else, probably at Scapa.
Meaning heavier pressure on the Arctic German Kriegsmarine - maybe Tirptiz caught in the open by Victorious , Furious ?

It would also mean a more difficult war for Malta. Lacking supply possibilities from Gib may mean (almost surely) much much more stocks being taken in early 1941 from Alexandria and Port Said/etc.

However main positive result for Nazi Germany would be, IMHO, a bridgehead near Africa... And possibilities of opening a frontline there. I seem to remember several African dictators of the time were favoring Hitler. Is that confirmed ?

Best,

[Ironmachine]

However main positive result for Nazi Germany would be, IMHO, a bridgehead near Africa... And possibilities of opening a frontline there. I seem to remember several African dictators of the time were favoring Hitler. Is that confirmed ?

No, that is not confirmed because you are going to have a difficult time finding those "African dictators". IIRC only Liberia was nominally a "free" country in Africa in 1940. The rest of Africa was just a collection of colonies and territories under some kind of European control (French, British, Italian, Belgian, Portuguese and Spanish).