What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
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What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
Hello guys,
It's a simple question which hasn't been asked yet and I think it's an interesting one. As we all know, the German surface fleet was pretty small compared to the allied fleets. The Kriegsmarine failed to capture many battle ships from the conquered nations. For example, the Dutch fleet (which was the 7th fleet of the world at that moment) escaped to England.
Most notably, however, was the German failure to capture the French surface fleet in 1942. Would the outcome of the mediterranean theater have changed if these ships could have been used by the Germans?
Greetings,
Henri
It's a simple question which hasn't been asked yet and I think it's an interesting one. As we all know, the German surface fleet was pretty small compared to the allied fleets. The Kriegsmarine failed to capture many battle ships from the conquered nations. For example, the Dutch fleet (which was the 7th fleet of the world at that moment) escaped to England.
Most notably, however, was the German failure to capture the French surface fleet in 1942. Would the outcome of the mediterranean theater have changed if these ships could have been used by the Germans?
Greetings,
Henri
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Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
The Germans wouldn't have been able to operate them right away and even when they could there'd be big issues. The first is the equipment aboard is often going to be incompatible with German KM equipment. Next you have the language issue. Everything's in French.
Training a crew to operate a cruiser or battleship would take better than a year to accomplish if you want one that at least knows how to operate the ship.
Then there's the problem of parts and supplies for them. Many of the older French ships were in very poor material condition. The Bearn was eventually used as an aircraft transport but was never considered for use as even an escort carrier due to being worn out. The battleship Paris was in England when France surrendered. The British used her as a barracks ship because she was worthless as a battleship.
So, the Germans capture them. The surviving units might be usable by the end of 1941. Even then, they still have issues with things like fuel. The Germans already have a shortage. The Italian fleet sits in harbor a lot due to lack of fuel too. How's that play out?
Training a crew to operate a cruiser or battleship would take better than a year to accomplish if you want one that at least knows how to operate the ship.
Then there's the problem of parts and supplies for them. Many of the older French ships were in very poor material condition. The Bearn was eventually used as an aircraft transport but was never considered for use as even an escort carrier due to being worn out. The battleship Paris was in England when France surrendered. The British used her as a barracks ship because she was worthless as a battleship.
So, the Germans capture them. The surviving units might be usable by the end of 1941. Even then, they still have issues with things like fuel. The Germans already have a shortage. The Italian fleet sits in harbor a lot due to lack of fuel too. How's that play out?
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Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
That is the first thing I thought about. You need a lot of French support to effectively use these ships.T. A. Gardner wrote:The Germans wouldn't have been able to operate them right away and even when they could there'd be big issues. The first is the equipment aboard is often going to be incompatible with German KM equipment. Next you have the language issue. Everything's in French.
Training a crew to operate a cruiser or battleship would take better than a year to accomplish if you want one that at least knows how to operate the ship.
Interesting, didn't know that.Then there's the problem of parts and supplies for them. Many of the older French ships were in very poor material condition. The Bearn was eventually used as an aircraft transport but was never considered for use as even an escort carrier due to being worn out. The battleship Paris was in England when France surrendered. The British used her as a barracks ship because she was worthless as a battleship.
You probably mean 1943. The fuel issue was indeed a terrible problem for the Axis powers. So basically you're saying that capturing enemy's ships wouldn't have made any difference after 1942?So, the Germans capture them. The surviving units might be usable by the end of 1941. Even then, they still have issues with things like fuel. The Germans already have a shortage. The Italian fleet sits in harbor a lot due to lack of fuel too. How's that play out?
Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
The weapons might have been usable to augment the Atlantic wall, and perhaps the hulls could have something more useful built onto them?
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Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
posted an earlier thread about French submarines under German control http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=221786
there are really too many problems for quick use, they could have been employed as coastal batteries and held as post-war Italian project(s)
the forgotten angle is that huge numbers of merchant ships were captured too, making up some of the losses Axis suffered during North Africa campaign. if their situation had not been so dire they could have armed those to great effect (as Sperrbrecher http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ship ... index.html)
there are really too many problems for quick use, they could have been employed as coastal batteries and held as post-war Italian project(s)
the forgotten angle is that huge numbers of merchant ships were captured too, making up some of the losses Axis suffered during North Africa campaign. if their situation had not been so dire they could have armed those to great effect (as Sperrbrecher http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ship ... index.html)
Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
The most that can be achieved is a fleet in being, thereby forcing the allies to devote a larger-than-historical escort for the med convoys.Henri Winkelman wrote:You probably mean 1943. The fuel issue was indeed a terrible problem for the Axis powers. So basically you're saying that capturing enemy's ships wouldn't have made any difference after 1942?
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Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
Thanks for your responses guys. So basically we can say that the destruction of the French fleet in the end was worse for the allies than for the Germans? Or wouldn't it have changed much if the allies could use the (remnants of the) French fleet?
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Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
Not changed much. The Germans could have cherry picked a few of the most modern & suitable lighter ships; torpedo boats, patrol boats, destroyers, submarines. Adding one or two French long range subs to the nine or ten German subs in Op Drumbeat may increase Allied cargo ship losses by 5-10%. Having two dozen patrol boats available may mean the Germans have a effective picket in the Channel 6 June & get a radio warning of enemy ships clearing the minefields.
In the summer of 1942 the losses to the Op Pedistal Convoy were inflicted by a combination of Axis aircraft, light surface ships, & subs. Perhaps if the Axis had concentrated on supplementing the Italian fleet with former French torpedo boats, small subs, ect then none of the Pedestal convoy ships get through?
I sm unsure if any of the French heavy cruisers or BB were even suitable to join the German capitol ships as surface raiders in the Atlantic? Since the Germans lost that game in 1941 it hardly seems worth the effort.
In the summer of 1942 the losses to the Op Pedistal Convoy were inflicted by a combination of Axis aircraft, light surface ships, & subs. Perhaps if the Axis had concentrated on supplementing the Italian fleet with former French torpedo boats, small subs, ect then none of the Pedestal convoy ships get through?
I sm unsure if any of the French heavy cruisers or BB were even suitable to join the German capitol ships as surface raiders in the Atlantic? Since the Germans lost that game in 1941 it hardly seems worth the effort.
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Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
hi,
At that time, DRUMBEAT and PEDESTAL were history.
greetings, the pb
A very definite NO for both cases; LILA took place in November, 1942 (!)Carl Schwamberger wrote:Adding one or two French long range subs to the nine or ten German subs in Op Drumbeat may increase Allied cargo ship losses by 5-10%.
In the summer of 1942 the losses to the Op Pedistal Convoy were inflicted by a combination of Axis aircraft, light surface ships, & subs. Perhaps if the Axis had concentrated on supplementing the Italian fleet with former French torpedo boats, small subs, ect then none of the Pedestal convoy ships get through?
At that time, DRUMBEAT and PEDESTAL were history.
greetings, the pb
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Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
Thats what I get for taking the long view and not staying rigidly inside the OP box.
Yes Op Lila is way late in the game for any significant benefit to Germany. Perhaps the French did the Germans a favor by scuttling the ships. Otherwise scarce resources might have been wasted trying to return some to operating status.
Yes Op Lila is way late in the game for any significant benefit to Germany. Perhaps the French did the Germans a favor by scuttling the ships. Otherwise scarce resources might have been wasted trying to return some to operating status.
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Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
Wasn't the point of Vichy maintaining it's Mediterranean fleet to serve as a deterrent to Germany/Italy/Spain trying to steal it's North African colonial holdings? The reason for Case Anton in part being Vichy wasn't credibly defending it's neutralized North African holdings from the Americans so there was no longer a 'deal' whereby they could keep their fleet?Kingfish wrote:The most that can be achieved is a fleet in being, thereby forcing the allies to devote a larger-than-historical escort for the med convoys.Henri Winkelman wrote:You probably mean 1943. The fuel issue was indeed a terrible problem for the Axis powers. So basically you're saying that capturing enemy's ships wouldn't have made any difference after 1942?
If the Germans just march to the French Mediterranean coast in 1940 rather than accept the French armistice it looks like a de facto 'France Fights On' scenario.
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Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
Best option was for the Germans to seize the French fleet off the line of march in 1940 hopefully as a preplanned operation. ...maybe with Brandenburg companies landed in 'neutral already captured'-merchant ships . Historically about 25% of the allied fleets of the occupied countries - fell into AXIS hands. Usually the best units escaped ; but KM scooped a number of valuable assets. With a little forethought targeted vessels could have been seized.
For the record the KM did seize & use a number of foreign vessels [50-60 TB DE DD etc] mostly in the Med.
For the record the KM did seize & use a number of foreign vessels [50-60 TB DE DD etc] mostly in the Med.
Re: What if operation Lila (capturing the French fleet in Toulon) succeeds?
Some of Pedestal got through because the Italian surface force got cold feet and turned around... straight into a Sub called Upholder's sights.
I think that all that would have happened at this late stage is the Brits would have developed their usual mania for sinking the biggest enemy ships any way they could. Bomber Harris would have been diverted from other targets and very unhappy about it, the fleet air arm would have gone all out, and some daring Commandos would have met a grisly & heroic fate.
Such a diversion might have helped the Germans a bit, but that's about all it would have amounted to.... in my own view... and in a few months it would be back to business as usual.
I think that all that would have happened at this late stage is the Brits would have developed their usual mania for sinking the biggest enemy ships any way they could. Bomber Harris would have been diverted from other targets and very unhappy about it, the fleet air arm would have gone all out, and some daring Commandos would have met a grisly & heroic fate.
Such a diversion might have helped the Germans a bit, but that's about all it would have amounted to.... in my own view... and in a few months it would be back to business as usual.