Bismarck what if

[NASAFAN101]

but over all it's a good movie right?
NIkki

[Von Schadewald]

Assuming Bismarck makes it to Brest.

Does Brest have the facilities to repair her?

What do the Germans do with her assuming she's fully repaired and replenished?

Dare they try an early Cerberus?

Or does she go out again into the Atlantic in the autumn, with S-boat escorts, to try and intercept a N .or S.Africa bound convoy?

How does Bismarck's presence in France effect British thinking, convoy and RN routings and stationings?

(Assuming that the RAF cannot intercede in 1941, as the Germans make any daylight bombing raids on Brest by Wellingtons, Blenheims or Beauforts into suicide missions).

[Carl Schwamberger]

Assuming Bismarck makes it to Brest.

Does Brest have the facilities to repair her?

Yes. The French had a well developed ship industry & the facilitiys werre there. If specific or unique welding equipment or machine tools were neeeded they could be sent from the German shipyards. The drydock at St Nazzaire could accomodate the Bismarck.

What do the Germans do with her assuming she's fully repaired and replenished?

Sortie out into the Atlantic to threaten convoys, as the earlier German ships had done. having surface ships & submarines operating at the same time places the defender in a dilemma. A convoy is good protection from submaarines, but is a target rich enviroment for a capitol ship. Or better for a pair. Scattering the ships of the convoy reduces the number of targets visable at any particular moment for the surface raider, then leaves the cargo ships vulnerable to submarines & aircraft. ie: PQ17. Could escourting battleships protect the convoy? Yes in theory. When gamed out by naval officers, or by gamers for entertainment, circumstances frequently place the escourt in the wrong location to rapidly intervene. Weather, false intellegence, mechanical problems, ect... frequently allow the raider to do significant damage before the escourt can drive it off. Also there were simply not enough British battleships to provide escourts for all the convoys which needed them.

Dare they try an early Cerberus?

Perhaps. What were the critical factors in Cerbus?

Or does she go out again into the Atlantic in the autumn, with S-boat escorts, to try and intercept a N .or S.Africa bound convoy?

Quite possible.

How does Bismarck's presence in France effect British thinking, convoy and RN routings and stationings?

The timing & placement of the British battleship & aircraft carrier task groups becomes a even greater consideration for convoy schedules.

(Assuming that the RAF cannot intercede in 1941, as the Germans make any daylight bombing raids on Brest by Wellingtons, Blenheims or Beauforts into suicide missions).

[Hop]

(Assuming that the RAF cannot intercede in 1941, as the Germans make any daylight bombing raids on Brest by Wellingtons, Blenheims or Beauforts into suicide missions).

Scharnhorst entered Brest on 22nd March 1941. Because of air raids, she was moved to La Pallice. On 24th July she was hit by 5 bombs. Two 500 lb bombs exploded, 3 1000 lb bombs did not, but the damage put her out of action for 4 months.

Gneisenau entered Brest on the 22nd March 1941. In April she was hit by a torpedo, and put into dry dock. A few days later she was hit by several bombs. She was out of action for 9 months.

Prinz Eugen entered Brest on 1st June 1941. On 1/2 July she was bombed and suffered fairly major damage.

Assuming the RAF can't intercede is a big assumption. In particular, with Bismark in Brest as well, BC might well devote considerably more attention to attacking the ships.

[T. A. Gardner]

Well, right off we are looking at about a year in the yards to fix Bismarck. The forward generator room will need full repair. At least one boiler room (port forward) will also require alot of work. There is the bow hole and all of the flooded compartments there needing repair and clean up. Then, there is the rudder damage and a second torpedo hit that will require major hull repairs and alot of machinery repair and replacement.
So, if Bismarck gets out of the yards unscathed some time in mid 1942 then the Germans are looking at a greatly improved Coastal Command, a stronger Bomber Command, and US involvement. Even if the Bismarck got into the Atlantic between the Royal Navy and US Navy she is doomed or destined for a very short run before retreating to port.
Time is against the Germans in the war at sea. They had to win early or not at all. Bismarck surviving only means she remains another waste of materials and manpower to Germany.

[Von Schadewald]

A year in the yard? How were the British able to repair the comparably damaged POW so quickly?

[T. A. Gardner]

The difference was that almost all of PoW's damage was superficial. There were only three hits that caused any real amount of yard work. These were:

1. The bridge hit. This would require repair or replacement of damaged equipment. But, most of this could be done fairly quickly. There was no structurial work of any significance involved.

2. The hit on the tower supporting the HA/LA directors for the secondary battery. This involved some structurial work and replacement of the cabling but was not too involved.

3. The hit below the belt that resulted in flooding of several wing tank compartments. This was the most work intensive hit. It involves repairing the hull structure and shell plating. It would be the one that determined yard time as the work on other damage would progress simultaneously and be done before this hit was repaired.

The PoW was also lucky in that none of the hits she received fully detonated. Most failed to detonate at all. This greatly simplified her repairs limiting splinter damage work.

In the Bismarck's case the there were two hits that would require extensive work. Again, both could be done simultaneously but both involve extensive repairs. The generator room hit will require a partial opening of the hull to remove and repair / replace the equipment in that space. You cannot simply install something as big as a ship's service turbo generator through existing deck hatches. The associated switchgrear will need repair or replacement. This will have to be fabricated at the factory if needed. Same with the generators. These are things countries just don't have laying around in a warehouse somewhere. These things take months just to manufacture, then there is shipping time, and then installation and testing.
The boiler space was partially flooded aft of this space. Depending on the extent of flooding it may require extensive repair in place of the boilers. If the fire box got flooded replacement of the fire brick liner will be required. Other repairs are likely also. If seawater got into any of the feed systems then these will require cleaning, a fairly labor intensive job in itself.
Then there is the structurial issues. The armor decks were penetrated requiring a fair amount of work for repair in themselves. The bulkheads and other structure in the machinery spaces and most of the bow will require inspection and repair over a fairly extensive area. The bow hit was sufficently damaging that the Bismarck had to reduce speed and shore up several bulkheads to prevent progressive flooding. This is a sure sign that the amount of water admitted and the shell damage itself was sufficently bad to cause structruial problems. Again, an extensive repair.
Then there was the rudder damage. This too would require alot of time and effort. If major machinery had to be removed, the hull once again had to be opened to do it. If a new rudder or other large equipment had to be replaced this would require fabrication again.
On the whole, Bismarck simply had been damaged in locations that were very expensive and such that alot of work would be required to repair her. The year figure is a "ball park" estimate with a range of say, 9 to 15 months.

I've done enough actual planning and supervision of repairs on ships to have a fair idea what is involved. For example, the USS Barbour County, LST 1195 was one I worked on. She had a diesel engine room fire that required months of repairs in the yard just for a single main space. Or, the USS Durham LKA 114 had problems with her boom wench systems requiring over 10,000 hours of electrical work to repair and even then the problems persisted to some extent.

[NASAFAN101]

who old was she when she sank, i guessed 18 mouth, and i'm not to sure if i'm right on that??
NIKKI

[Von Schadewald]

WI the action had taken place further west?

WI Bismarck and PE meet a US battleship before the battle? WI they have trouble identifying eachother, and the range closes to 10,000 yards? Is there a chance of an accidental fight?

And if Bismarck met a US battleship after sinking Hood, could there be a chance of a deliberate fight by one side or the other?

Were U boats apprised of Bismarck's presence in the Atlantic? Was there a chance of her being accidentally torpedoed by her own side?

[LWD]

WI the action had taken place further west?

Not enough info to make much of an informed opinion. How much further west? What's yoru opinion?

WI Bismarck and PE meet a US battleship before the battle? WI they have trouble identifying eachother, and the range closes to 10,000 yards? Is there a chance of an accidental fight?

1) That depends on a largenumer of factors.
2) The US shouldn't have any trouble ID'ing Bismark if they get a good look at her. Most US BBs of the time were pretty distinctive comparied to the British. I think Texas was the only one in the area and the Germans shouldn't have much trouble ID'ing her.
3) Depends a lot on the circumstances (visibility other ships present etc). Most likely way a battle would start is if Bismark engages a convoy escorted by a US BB not realising the US BB is present.

And if Bismarck met a US battleship after sinking Hood, could there be a chance of a deliberate fight by one side or the other?

Very little. Bismark is faster than the US BB's in the area and doesn't want to fight another BB of any flavor. US might try and provoke an attack but the US is unlikly to initiate it unless defending a convoy.

Were U boats apprised of Bismarck's presence in the Atlantic? Was there a chance of her being accidentally torpedoed by her own side?

Yes and Yes. Although the latter is unlikely.

[Von Schadewald]

Is there any chance of the German's retreat back to France, the Baltic or Norway being cut off, they are hounded all the way to Canada and get trapped in the Hudson Bay?! Is this totally inconceivable?

If they end up berthed at the Vichy St Pierre or Miquelon, what do the Anglo-Canucks do? The Germans scuttle their ships and the crews repatriated?

Or Lutjen's fights to the finish?

[NASAFAN101]

ya, but wasn't she the fasted ship, at 32 knots?
NIkki

[Von Schadewald]

WI Hood takes on Bismarck and POW takes on PE?

Hood sinks as in OTL.

POW sinks PE, and does not get to engage Bismarck.

Without PE, would an undamaged Bismarck continue on its anti-convoy run, with what chance of success?

Or immediately hop it back to base, with what chance of making it?

[LWD]

Why does POW not engage Bismark? Once PE is in bad shape POW would shurely switch fire to Bismark.
No reason for Bismark not to continue its raid that I can think of. What do you consider success?
Undamaged Bismark shouldn't have too much trouble returning to a German port. Why she would do so is another question.

[Von Schadewald]

POW will certainly beat PE. But five or six 20.8cm hits from her may prevent POW from engaging/following Bismarck. If Lutjens sees that PE is a lost cause, he would continue on with the mission or go straight back to base.