Bismarck what if

[Von Schadewald]

Together, PE & Bismarck would have put up quite a flak barrage, something akin to Force Z!

Presumably the gunners would have rapidly improved, if they survived.

In OTL Bismarck shot nothing down.

Obviously a Swordfish is not such an easy target.

Or were the British just lucky?

Or was Bismarck's HA/LA AA suite deficient?

[Flint]

There does seem to be the assumption that if PE remained with Bismarck that Bismarck still would have received the fatal torpedo hit in her stern. Maybe this belongs in another what if, but I believe that if PE stayed with Bismarck then her presence would may very well have disrupted the Swordfish attack and spared Bismarck. The planes had earlier mistaken the Sheffield for Bismack and some may have gone after PE. In this scenario both ships come in range of the Luftwaffe on the 27th and safely arrive in France.

[Hound Dog]

There does seem to be the assumption that if PE remained with Bismarck that Bismarck still would have received the fatal torpedo hit in her stern. Maybe this belongs in another what if, but I believe that if PE stayed with Bismarck then her presence would may very well have disrupted the Swordfish attack and spared Bismarck. The planes had earlier mistaken the Sheffield for Bismack and some may have gone after PE. In this scenario both ships come in range of the Luftwaffe on the 27th and safely arrive in France.

Good point about the torp hit. I didn't think about that.

The Swordfish torpedo hit on Bismarck's stern was a lucky hit, unlikely to be repeated had events played out even slightly differently. Someone (in another thread, I believe) mentioned it's unlikely a single torp hit anywhere ELSE on Bismarck would've caused so much damage. Had PE stayed with Bismarck it's likely that lucky hit never would have occurred. It's also possible PE could have suffered severe damage, as her armor wasn't as good as Bismarck (she had, after all, only a Heavy Cruiser's armor compared to her companion's Battleship armor). PE could have been damaged to the point where she would've been scuttled so she wouldn't slow down Bismarck.

What about the fact Bismarck disappeared at one point, but she didn't know she lost her shadowers? The Capt of the Bismarck made an extensive radio report to HQ, allowing the RN to find her via Direction Finding. If she hadn't done this, it's likely she would have gotten away.

Still, even if they would have reached France (to repair Bismarck's damage suffered in her first battle), the English would've put incredible pressure on her. They launched "The Campbelltown Raid" at a later point just to destroy the only drydock big enough to hold Tirpitz - they sacrificed an old Destroyer and put a lot of people at risk to do so. Had Bismarck made port, it is interesting to consider what the RAF and RN would've tried to do about it. Gneisenau was critically damaged in Germany after the Channel Dash - it's plausible Bismarck could have suffered a similar fate as the pressure on her would have been unbearable. I just think the Germans lacked the resources to sustain a BB in the open Atlantic.

[Tim Smith]

After Bismarck sunk the Hood, I'm sure that Churchill would have seen through his order to sink the Bismarck at any cost.

If Bismarck had made it to Brest, I believe RAF Bomber Command would have been sent to plaster her with bombs night after night until she was resting on the bottom of Brest Harbour - even if cost the RAF 200 bombers shot down in the process by flak and night fighters.

[Carl Schwamberger]

"Or was Bismarck's HA/LA AA suite deficient? "

Possibly. Looking over the types & numbers of guns it does not appear as capable as what the British, Japanese, or Americans placed on their ships of the same era. Certainly nothing like that of 1944 in the Pacific.

[Hound Dog]

"Or was Bismarck's HA/LA AA suite deficient? "

Possibly. Looking over the types & numbers of guns it does not appear as capable as what the British, Japanese, or Americans placed on their ships of the same era. Certainly nothing like that of 1944 in the Pacific.

No Navy in 1941 really had effective AA protection. PoW and Repulse didn't do well at all against the Japanese aircraft that sunk them. The RN was able to only shoot down three aircraft (of course, it didn't help PoW that power to her AA guns was disrupted by damage) in the attack that sank them. It wasn't just equipment; it was training.

By 1944, there were heavy and light AA guns on pretty much everybody's ships anywhere there was available deck space.

[Von Schadewald]

Only one Bofors. No tracer for the pom poms. The air search radar broken, giving them no early warning (would it have helped?!). Power quickly lost to the 5.25": "a pretty poor show altogether!" - not that any navy could've done any better .But I thought it was 5 Japanese shot down?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... essink.jpg

[Von Schadewald]

In March 1942, Tirpitz tried to intercept convoy PQ12, but was spotted by a British submarine.

Albacores from Victorious attacked but were shot down.

Tirpitz retreated, but tied down the Home Fleet for the rest of the war.

Assuming Bismarck had survived, reached France, done a "Cerberus", and the Germans were able to send out from the Baltic or Norway their entire fleet of Bismarck, Tirpitz, PE, Hipper, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and 10 destroyers sometime in 1942, what is the best possible use they could have done with it, even in a limited operation, without getting entangled with the American Atlantic fleet, avoiding British aircraft carriers, and coordinating fully with U boats and Luftwaffe long-range reconnaisance aircraft?

Even without Bismarck, would such a force be beyond the stretched-thin Home Fleet to take on (assuming aircraft aren't involved)?

If they went east, would bombarding and destroying the docks of Murmansk and Archangel be within their ability, and would it achieve anything? Or bombard Reykjavik, which was then becoming important to the Allies (cf Scharnhorst's bombarding of Spitzbergen in September 1943).

[T. A. Gardner]

Tactics make up for alot here. The British lacked decent AA batteries on the escorts of force Z. None of the DDs accompanying the capital ships could put up any kind of useful fire against aircraft. Both the British and Germans also had not yet adopted the circular formation for air defense. In 1940 - 41 this was exclusively the pervue of the US Navy.
The advantage to this formation and having destroyers with useful AA batteries is that the formation can work over the air strike for far longer than an individual ship can. The DDs are out on the outer ring at about 3 miles from the capital ships. They can open fire at about 5 miles. They can then continue fire as the formation passes through the screen and also begin to take fire from the capital ships that maneuver in formation making their fire denser. The US also had the advantage of arguably the best AA fire control of the period in their Mk 33 and 38 directors.
The problem with force Z and the Bismarck - Prinz Eugen formations is that the capital ships go to high speed and maneuver radically as individual vessels (the standard at the time). This ruins their AA gunner's aim while also lowering the amount of AA fire placed on the attackers. While it does help avoid hits it does nothing to really deter the attackers. It is a double whammy. See Methods of Operations Research Kimball and Morse pg 82 sections 5.1.2 and 5.1.3 for an analysis.

[NASAFAN101]

ok what if it was PE, Triptiz and Bismarck on her first trip into open water, what would have happened?
NIKKI

[Von Schadewald]

Presumably in OTL, the exact nature of the Swordfish attacks that crippled Bismarck were kept secret by the British and not known to the KM.

A surviving Bismarck's crew will have reported their experience against Swordfish, and the KM will have bedecked their prize ships before any sortie with as many low level Flakvierlings, Flak 28 and Flak 42s as possible, even at the expense of removing some 10.5cm!

[NASAFAN101]

i gress what i'm try to ask is would all three have gone home safe and sound or woulld triptiz and Bismarck have been sink?
Nikki

[Von Schadewald]

If it's early 1942 and they can take out one entire convoy, and/or two British capital ships with them to the bottom, this might still tilt the war in the Axis favour.

[LWD]

Breaking out in 42 is a problem. If they do break out the British have more BBs on line as well. Not sure force Z even heads for the East with Bismark still around. The Britts also have a lot of subs and this force doesn't have much in the way of ASW escorts. It could make the Murmansk runs a lot more dangerous but that might just increase the flow through the Mid East and Siberia. If they try for Iceland they are almost assuredly going to get involved with the US Atlantic fleet. As several events showed in WWII a damaged raider has an excelent chance of becoming a sunk raider and these are essentially raiders. Also consider if they stick together they'll only be able to hit one convoy at a time and by 42 there are a lot of PBYs and B-24s out patroling that can spot them and direct convoys around them.

[NASAFAN101]

Like what my farther told me She and her sister, triptiz would have been sank sooner or later!
NIKKI