"Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

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Hoolaman
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"Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

#1

Post by Hoolaman » 20 Jul 2004, 02:17

I was thinking the other day about the bizarre decision to cut east prussia from the rest of Germany by giving the corridor to Poland. It never seemed like a logical idea to me, but Wilson wanted to give Poland sea access.

My what if is, what if Poland had been given a corridor between Lithunania and East Prussia, and Germany keeping the rest of it's eastern borders as they were, the sudetenland was also to remain German. In this scenario I would think France would still take the territory in the west. All other terms of the Versaille treaty would be the same, and all domestic events in Germany would be much the same.

What difference would this make to Hitlers policies and how would the interwar years and the war itself be different? Where would Hitler strike first?

I can't see a justification for war against Poland, probably no cause for a crisis over Czechoslavakia.

I think there would be far Greater emphasis on political subversion in other countries. The Czech's and the Austrians could have there governments replaced in the nazi style of revolution. Hungary and Romania may also have joined Hitler.

I can see Hitler eventually "saving" Poland from Russian "aggression" whether Poland asks to be saved or russia is really threatening her. A closer relationship with poland against the communists would seem to be the main alternative for Hitler. Maybe a joint Polish/German attack in 1942??!

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#2

Post by maltesefalcon » 20 Jul 2004, 12:54

I think part of the reason for the existing setup was to allow the Vistula as part of the Polish area. This would allow vessels on the Vistula to acces the Baltic from Poland.

Putting a corridor on the Eastern flank would have to encompass Danzig, to provide a useful port. Otherwise there was no point.

Of course part of the reasoning for the setup was pure spite, to annoy the Germans leaving in the area.


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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

#3

Post by Futurist » 21 Aug 2016, 00:15

Hoolaman wrote:I was thinking the other day about the bizarre decision to cut east prussia from the rest of Germany by giving the corridor to Poland. It never seemed like a logical idea to me, but Wilson wanted to give Poland sea access.
Actually, this map shows that this idea was very logical :):

Image
My what if is, what if Poland had been given a corridor between Lithunania and East Prussia, and Germany keeping the rest of it's eastern borders as they were, the sudetenland was also to remain German. In this scenario I would think France would still take the territory in the west. All other terms of the Versaille treaty would be the same, and all domestic events in Germany would be much the same.

What difference would this make to Hitlers policies and how would the interwar years and the war itself be different? Where would Hitler strike first?

I can't see a justification for war against Poland, probably no cause for a crisis over Czechoslavakia.

I think there would be far Greater emphasis on political subversion in other countries. The Czech's and the Austrians could have there governments replaced in the nazi style of revolution. Hungary and Romania may also have joined Hitler.

I can see Hitler eventually "saving" Poland from Russian "aggression" whether Poland asks to be saved or russia is really threatening her. A closer relationship with poland against the communists would seem to be the main alternative for Hitler. Maybe a joint Polish/German attack in 1942??!
You appear to be forgetting the fact that, in this TL, Poland would literally be in the way of Nazi Germany and its desired Eastern European Lebensraum. In turn, this means that if Poland refuses to allow Nazi Germany to have an extraterritorial road through its (East Prussian-Lithuanian) corridor, then Nazi Germany would probably still be tempted to invade Poland so that it can have a land route to its desired Eastern European Lebensraum.

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Re:

#4

Post by Futurist » 21 Aug 2016, 00:16

maltesefalcon wrote:I think part of the reason for the existing setup was to allow the Vistula as part of the Polish area. This would allow vessels on the Vistula to acces the Baltic from Poland.
Yes, that and demographic reasons.
Putting a corridor on the Eastern flank would have to encompass Danzig, to provide a useful port. Otherwise there was no point.
Completely agreed.
Of course part of the reasoning for the setup was pure spite, to annoy the Germans leaving in the area.
Frankly, if it was "pure spite," then Poland would have probably also acquired Danzig.

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Re:

#5

Post by BDV » 21 Aug 2016, 02:39

maltesefalcon wrote:I think part of the reason for the existing setup was to allow the Vistula as part of the Polish area. This would allow vessels on the Vistula to acces the Baltic from Poland.


this does not require a Polish corridor, rights of passage can be regulated by international convention, like Rhine or Danube or Maas.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Re:

#6

Post by Futurist » 21 Aug 2016, 03:30

BDV wrote:
maltesefalcon wrote:I think part of the reason for the existing setup was to allow the Vistula as part of the Polish area. This would allow vessels on the Vistula to acces the Baltic from Poland.


this does not require a Polish corridor, rights of passage can be regulated by international convention, like Rhine or Danube or Maas.
Can't such international conventions be broken/violated by one of the parties, though?

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Re: Re:

#7

Post by BDV » 21 Aug 2016, 13:17

Futurist wrote:Can't such international conventions be broken/violated by one of the parties, though?
Only with serious/severe consequences
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

#8

Post by maltesefalcon » 22 Aug 2016, 00:55

Having access to the mouth of the Vistula for trade would work as long as the Germans remained on peaceful terms.

If they did not, it would be better if Poland had an actual coastline. That way friendly naval vessels (either Polish or Allied) could provide assistance.

Using the eastern border would provide a fairly narrow outlet to the Baltic and any vessels would be dangerously close to Lithuania, which was not exactly a friend to Poland either. So Memel is out. Perhaps Konigsberg would work if the two nations could come to an agreement. Germany would need to lose all the territory east of that city to make it viable.

This is an old thread but if the OP is still reading, would be interested in a map view showing the alternate corridor. (I'm assuming Germany would be losing the land, not Lithuania.)

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

#9

Post by pugsville » 22 Aug 2016, 10:18

As the Germans opposed and blocked shipments of arms through German territory during the Polish-Russian war in 1920 , the Poles would be foolish to rely on German good will.

Hotler would have invaded Poland anyway.

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

#10

Post by BDV » 22 Aug 2016, 14:26

pugsville wrote:As the Germans opposed and blocked shipments of arms through German territory during the Polish-Russian war in 1920 , the Poles would be foolish to rely on German good will.
A international treaty is not "relying on good will".

Hotler would have invaded Poland anyway.
well, looks like the Entente handed Hotler and his retinue of German irredentist thugs one "valid" reason. :roll:
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

#11

Post by maltesefalcon » 23 Aug 2016, 01:56

There is more to the story than just good will or international treaties (which the Nazi government repeatedly ignored in any case).

The Rhine is a good example of a river that flows through many countries and depended on the good will of several nations for commerce and traffic to succeed. In this case the souce and the mouth are in two different nations and for part of its journey acts as an international border.

The Vistula does not fit this model. Poland was virtually ringed by countries that didnt like them very much. But the river is essentially a Polish watercourse and loss of the Polish Corridor would put the mouth into German hands.

Can you imagine the reaction of France if the mouth of the Seine suddenly was turned over to Germany. Or the USA of the mouth of the Mississippi was occupied by Mexico?

Sorting things out on ethnic or cultural bases was even tougher. The country had not existed as a sovereign nation for over 100 years. So each of the deomgraphic groups felt slighted if their portion was alloted to the wrong country.

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

#12

Post by pugsville » 23 Aug 2016, 08:55

BDV wrote:
pugsville wrote:As the Germans opposed and blocked shipments of arms through German territory during the Polish-Russian war in 1920 , the Poles would be foolish to rely on German good will.
A international treaty is not "relying on good will".
oh Relying on some other nation being motivated to step in, like international treaties helped Ethiopia, or China, or that France and England were so keen to help Czechoslovakia or Poland?

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

#13

Post by BDV » 23 Aug 2016, 14:40

pugsville wrote:Relying on some other nation being motivated to step in, like international treaties helped Ethiopia, or China, or that France and England were so keen to help Czechoslovakia or Poland?
Indeed, why create extra friction when it only increases the chance you'll have to step in? Unless having a permanent friction point in order to provide an excuse to step in is the goal.

As to a country's major river flowing out to sea through another country, we have the Meuse, Rhine, and Colorado river as easy examples of major rivers that exit through a different country than that of origin. Not to mention Saint Lawrence, which drains the major agro-industrial area of the US (Great Lakes) and Danube that drains all of the Central Europe through Romania.

Poland would have had also the Grodno river port on Nemunas for alternative exit, and access to Tisa and Pruth for exit to Danube, and access to Dniester for exit to Black Sea. So no, the Corridor was nonsense.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

#14

Post by thaddeus_c » 24 Aug 2016, 10:19

is there any indication Germany tried to gain Memel/Klaipeda to swap with Poland?

(my scenario is always Poland should have gone for access to port of Riga in Latvia, with whom they always had good relations rather than Corridor or Lithuania)

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

#15

Post by GregSingh » 24 Aug 2016, 11:14

What they did in 1919 in Versailles was to look at Poland's map from before partitioning (1772).
Corridor was already there and both Polish and Prussians were using port in Danzig. Nobody was complaining.

So they thought it would be the best idea to go back to that state of things.
Both Riga and Memel were not in Poland back there, so it did not come to anyone's mind.

Just Google map of Poland from 1772 to see what I mean. Corridor was not invented in 1919, that's my point.

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