German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

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Kurt_Steiner
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#16

Post by Kurt_Steiner » 22 Jul 2004, 10:28

Perhaps the German should have copied the idea of producing a fast, medium, powerful tank in great quantities, like the T-34 or the M-4 Sherman.

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#17

Post by maltesefalcon » 22 Jul 2004, 13:02

Hoolaman wrote:The most compelling argument I have seen against a direct copy so far is the ideological one supplied by Mr. Uncle Bob.

I am thinking a German "T34" would be fitted with an existing German petrol engine, an existing German gun, a radio, better optics etc. etc..... relatively minor adjustments to bring it into line with the German systems and logistics. Maybe a new turret mounted more to the rear would also reduce the crew problems and the friendly fire problems.

I have heard that such a concept was condidered, and my point is that such a project would yield a reliable tank to answer the T34 much earlier than the Panther became a reliable tank. The Panther wasn't what could be called reliable until 1944 and some would argue it never did become reliable.

As has been discussed above, even the alternative Panther designs which resembled the T34 were totally new tanks.

So my original question was to ask the forum
1) What improvements could German engineering easily make to the T34?
2) When would such a tank reach the front? (I guess ready for summer 1942)
3) What difference would it all make?
Your questions have been answered very well from both points of view. The reason you are still searching is in the way you have phrased them. I think most have agreed that your mid 1942 date is not realistic, no matter what the design. Tooling up plants at that time was not a simple matter. Then you have to produce a useful number, at least 1 or 2 hundred examples. In addition, there must be a supply of spares, not to mention training the crews on the new equipment.
Secondly your "copy" is nothing of the kind. A "T34" with a new gun,engine, turret, optics and radio is a new design, essentially what the Germans came up with in the Panther.


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#18

Post by Hoolaman » 22 Jul 2004, 15:40

I agree I have a problem with how I phrase questions!

The 1942 date was just a guess from me, for others to disagree with as they see fit, but I just based it upon the assumption that a copy would be available long before the Panther.

I never said that all these improvements to the T34 would be newly designed components, but rather existing German components fitted to the copy.


Even apart from the many difficulties in copying the T-34, it was also a question of at least matching the Soviet tanks of tomorrow, as well as having something hopefully superior today. Even if the T-34 could be produced as a straight copy in great quantity, it would obviously only be technologically equal to what the Soviets fielded - and the Germans would have the same problem all over facing IS-2 tanks the following year.
Fitting superior German optics in sights and other vision equipment was probably easy enough to do, as was of course fitting radios and maybe even an enlarged commander's cupola, as the Germans did to many other captured tanks. I don't know if this was done to captured T-34s?

Then there is also the recognition issue, as well as the difficulty in reproducing the T-34's diesel. It was not only a question of the light alloys used in the T-34's engine block. The fuel injectors needed in diesel engines are high-precision items that are difficult to make. It would have meant an additional production bottleneck, since the Lufwaffe had first priority for fuel injectors. Even so, the Germans tried to develop a reliable tank diesel throughout the war, but never quite succeeded. The Maus was supposed to have a powerful 1200 hp diesel.
Good points against a direct copy. Thanks everyone for the replies.

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#19

Post by maltesefalcon » 22 Jul 2004, 16:01

One more point.
Up until the late fall of 1941 when the s**t hit the fan, Germany felt that the war would end by the spring of 1942 at the latest.

Therefore a number of development and design programs for new weapons were either postponed or cancelled outright. Plans for increased production of weapons were also re-thought.

Overconfidence caused a fatal delay in a number of programs for new tanks and aircraft, which had they been available in useful numbers a year earlier, may have made the difference.

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#20

Post by Lkefct » 22 Jul 2004, 18:02

So my original question was to ask the forum
1) What improvements could German engineering easily make to the T34?
2) When would such a tank reach the front? (I guess ready for summer 1942)
3) What difference would it all make?
1). The primary thing is add the bigger 75 mm L70 gun. It was designed to give the medium tank in whatever form it took a better gun. It is much higher velocity then the regular issue 75 mm Pak 40 gun which gives it better armour penetration, and better first round hit probability. As I said, the DB design that is posted on most web sites shows that gun, and the design work to acocmidate that gun was fiunished before the tank was canceled. It IS the gun the Panther actuially carried, and it has better armour penetration at short ranges then the 88 mm L56 gun the Tiger carries, and doesn't lose that advantage until ranges beyond 1500 m. A good crew can engage and destroy most allied tanks beyond 2000m, and there are examples in combat of IS series heavy tanks being destroyed beyond 1000 m on first hits, and multiple hits destroying them at longer ranges. The 75 mm L48 gune the Pz IV carried, and the original Panther specification was to carry was just not that good a gun. At best it gave the WHermacht parity on the eastern front. That was an important first step in the 1941-1942 period, but the design of the new tank needed to have a battlefield advantage, and the bigger gun was the way to go.

2). I don't think any tank that is being put into production is going to reach the front in any nnumbers until the spring of 1943 at teh earliest. The limit is not in how the design works, but in getting the production lines set up. The DB would have gone into production somewhat later then the MAN design did. Even a direct copy of the t-34 would not get into production that much faster. A few months at most.

A bigger issue is how complicated the design is. THe Panthers and Tigers where plagued by major difficulties because of their size and complexities. A smaller tank in the 30-35 ton region, that has a special emphasis on being simple would offset those difficults a great deal. T-34, Shermans, and many other tanks, planes and other weapon systems have similar teething problems. AS a general rule, all new systems do. WHat is different is how long it takes to get them fixed. A we know, the Sherman and t-34 where relativey simple systems. We no longer embrace those difficulties that those vehilces had, because they where takend care of immediately,and where not that difficult to engineer around because they where designed with simplicity in mind. The german emphasis on outstanding engineering, made things much more complicated. Those complications lead to more probelms and made it more difficult to engineer through all of them. As far as the size goes, and the additional stress on the components, that was never completely solved, and that opens up a whole new can of worms in the recovering tanks arena. It doesn't matter if a tank breaks down or is detroyed in combat, both are out of action. When you are retreating like the Germans where, both are lost in alarming #'s.

3). The big one. One of the big problems with the Panther is the difficulties in getting their reliablity and production going. THe Panther was not a very active participant in the war until 1944. In 1944, it eventually took over as the most numerous tank in the German army, although the Pz IV remains in production until the facorties where overrun. The key with a new, simple tank, is trying to get it in wide scale production earlier. If the main factories that produced the Panther (there where 5 I think), and the engineers can get the bigs worked out, and get the DB (or any other lighter medium tank) into action and their reliablity up, then I think they can remove the Pz III, and PZ IV from production throughout 1943, and into early 1944. You would have had a lot more DB Panthers in action, although at the expense of the Pz IV. Since the DB is a better protected, more mobile, and better armed tank, that is something that is easy to live with. But you can't really take the PZ IV out of production, until the bugs are worked out on the new tank.

There is also the issue of the assualt gun/tank destroyer version. The Jagdpanther was widely regraded as the best tank destroyer in the war. It was reasonably fast, well protected, and carried the 88mm L71, which can detroy all known Allied tanks, and even all the projects they had on the boards. The DB version following the same lines, would have been ready much sooner. First, the MAN engineers really did not start work on the jagdpanther until late 1943, because they where working on the Panther problems. It did not take them long to get the new vehicle into action, as there where some in action in Normandy. The DB is even better suited to be used in that role then the Panther. First, you don't need to worry about the gun recoil to the dgree you do with a tank, as the hull absorbs a lot of the recoil. The DB has all the automative stuff in the rear, so nothing has to get moved around to accomidate the new gun. The fighting compartment is is very much unencombared, so it would not take long to do the desgin work, and get it into production. Ultimately, the Stug/StuH III/IV, and Jagdpanzer IV could be replaced in production. They are fine vehicles, and would be in service a long time, but they are not well armed or armoured by the late 1944 standards. Either hetzers or the new assulat gun based on the DB design would replace them, giving the same firepower in a better protected chasis, that is lighter and more reliable in the case of the Hetzer, and a better armed, better protected and faster. I also thin that Germany made a huge mistake producing a ton of the long 88mm L71 guns as towed AT guns. It takes a very large tractor to haul one, and it takes a long time to get into action because if it's size. Building more assualt guns to carry them gets them SP, which gets them involved in more actions, and protects them better.

We are not talking that germany would ever have had enough vehicles to match teh Allies numerically. THe US, USSR, and GB have much more production capacity then Germany. Even if you went to an all light tank force, you would still be outnumbered. What it would give you is more Panthers (although somewhat less well armoured), and better firepower and protection in the assualt gun and tank destoryer Bn.

I don't think alone, this is enough to stem the tide. Ultimately, many of germany's worst failures are from their leadership, not an equipment standpoint. Hitler insisted on fighting the last war with modern weapons. Most of germany's worst defeats in the mid war period could have been avoided, had her armoured units been allowed to manuver, and infantry armies allowed to consolidate their poistion rather then try and hold all the ground they had captured. Kursk and Stalingrad are the worst, but not only examples. If the new tank had been avlible in numbers in 1943, and Pz leaders allowed to manuver? It would have allowed them to maybe avoid having a lot of formation have to fight their way out of encirclements, which has a huge drain on arms production trying to re-equip these formations after they abandon their heavy weapons and AT equipment. Even without that, they would certainly taken a much heavier toll on allied tanks, and taken fewer losses thenselves. Ultimately, I don't thin anything could have saved Germany in 1944.

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Re:

#21

Post by kfbr392 » 26 Dec 2016, 00:06

Lkefct wrote:The DB version of the Panther was a far superior design to the one that was finally accepted from MAN. The vehicle has all of the automative components in the rear. While less efficient in terms of the traction that the front wheel drive on most German tanks it leaves the fighting compartment much more clear... The deisel engine that was purposed was based ona railway engine and was already avalible. It was much more suitible for the weight range that was intended, and more powerful. The whole design was just a whole lot simplier, and would probably have been much more easily put into action, and at a sooner date.
YES, YES, YES! Fully agree! Great post!

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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

#22

Post by maltesefalcon » 26 Dec 2016, 19:54

No matter what combination of T34 with possible improvements emerged, there was still a central issue to resolve.
IIRC Germany built ca. 40000 AFV of all types including ca 6000 Panther.

USSR built ca 60000 T34 alone in the same time frame. This discrepancy would need to be addressed for any major change in the war's outcoome to occur.

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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

#23

Post by T. A. Gardner » 26 Dec 2016, 23:17

I see the problem with this as a combination of design flaws in the T 34 and production issues that would have forced Germany to do some serious modifications to the vehicle.

Starting with the later. Some of this was mentioned already too...

The casting of the turret and some portions of the hull would have had to of had welded plate substituted and required some redesign as a result. The Germans didn't do really large castings and their industry wasn't really set up for it.


Then there's the design flaws.

I'm sure the Germans would have recognized the driver's hatch as a weak point and issue. That would have required redesign.
The coax machinegun position is nothing but a bullet hose. The Heer would have not accepted it as designed. They'd have wanted a mounting the operator / gunner could actually aim the gun and fire accurately from like in all their other tanks.
The two-man turret would have been considered a fail. That would necessitate a redesign of the turret for a three-man crew.
The T 34/42 was very short on observation devices when buttoned up. That would have necessitated adding more, adding a commander's cupola, etc.
The lack of an intercom system would have had to been fixed.
The ammunition storage arrangement in a T34 was horribly inefficient. That would have required a redesign of the interior to fit proper racks and such.
I could see the fitting of a German gasoline engine and clean up of the Russian transmission system. I don't think the Germans would have used it as designed.
The tracks would have required some redesign. I doubt the Germans would have willingly accepted the dry single end pin system the Russians were using as it was prone to failure.
The Christie spring suspension I could see being removed and replaced with a torsion bar one instead. That would have given more interior space in the hull. And was possible with the rejection of the Soviet ammunition storage system in 3 round "suitcases" on the floor of the vehicle.
Fitting this vehicle with a 75/48 was possible and likely would have occurred rather than using the Soviet F 34 gun.

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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

#24

Post by Stiltzkin » 27 Dec 2016, 06:05

You revived a very old topic, as many things were already addressed by T.A. Gardner et aliae which leaves us with the last point of the OP.
People tunnelvision on tanks, an introduction of the T-34 (or a copy for that matter) would not have changed anything, except having a very small tactical impact. In fact, the Soviets could have won the war with any other suitable tank (perhaps a higher quality vehicle like the T-34M or T-43/44 would have been desirable, they would have sustained fewer casualties), tanks inflicted less than 5-6% of the total losses and tank crews formed less than 1% of each respective factions armed forces.
Judging by the performance of the T-34 during the entire conflict from 41-45, it is pretty obvious that there would be no reason or benefit for the Germans to adopt this vehicle, as its performance was suboptimal.
Afterall, it holds the title for being the most destroyed tank in history, while still being called the "best tank of WW2".
Similar statements appear over the internet : The Garand won the war, the T-34 dominated the Eastern front, the P-51 won the war, the Mauser enabled the early German victories as they marched into Warsaw, Paris and Oslo" - these are just little components/variables of the whole picture.
USSR built ca 60000 T34 alone in the same time frame. This discrepancy would need to be addressed for any major change in the war's outcoome to occur.
This was discussed ad nauseam in the Economy section, production is a function of loss, higher losses + bigger army + more labour= higher production. The Soviets kept replacing their units, while allocating a larger fraction of their smaller resources to tank production (I believe somewhere around 28-33% vs 11-15% for the Axis), its a choice.

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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

#25

Post by stg 44 » 27 Dec 2016, 11:39

maltesefalcon wrote:No matter what combination of T34 with possible improvements emerged, there was still a central issue to resolve.
IIRC Germany built ca. 40000 AFV of all types including ca 6000 Panther.

USSR built ca 60000 T34 alone in the same time frame. This discrepancy would need to be addressed for any major change in the war's outcoome to occur.
Given that over 96k Soviet AFVs were destroyed in WW2 the lopsided kill ratios is how that would be resolved.
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/ ... f-war.html
According to this of 57k T-34s built in WW2 about 45k were destroyed.

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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

#26

Post by maltesefalcon » 27 Dec 2016, 17:18

Would it be fair to point out that a large proportion of those losses occurred in 1941/42 during the large encirclements?
The ratio of Soviet/German tank losses improved (for the Red Army) as the war progressed.

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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

#27

Post by stg 44 » 27 Dec 2016, 17:37

maltesefalcon wrote:Would it be fair to point out that a large proportion of those losses occurred in 1941/42 during the large encirclements?
The ratio of Soviet/German tank losses improved (for the Red Army) as the war progressed.
In terms of overall losses? Not really, huge losses happened in 1943-45. In fact the majority of T-34 losses happened after 1942. 1942 was the lowest level of T-34 losses as a percentage of production of the entire war actually. 1944 was the worst level of AFV losses of the war for any year. As AFV loss ratio, I don't have those numbers to confirm or deny what you're saying.

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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

#28

Post by Stiltzkin » 27 Dec 2016, 18:31

Would it be fair to point out that a large proportion of those losses occurred in 1941/42 during the large encirclements?
The ratio of Soviet/German tank losses improved (for the Red Army) as the war progressed.
They didn't.
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/repair_service/to_btmv.html

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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

#29

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Dec 2016, 18:59

stg 44 wrote: Given that over 96k Soviet AFVs were destroyed in WW2 the lopsided kill ratios is how that would be resolved.
By doing a proper cost/benefit comparison that includes the advantage gained by the losses. For instance for 1944-45 what would the picture show if ground gained per tank lost look like?

If we took this tank-fixated gerrymandering to its logical conclusion we could say the Battle Of Berlin was a stunning victory for Germany.

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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

#30

Post by stg 44 » 27 Dec 2016, 19:05

Michael Kenny wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Given that over 96k Soviet AFVs were destroyed in WW2 the lopsided kill ratios is how that would be resolved.
By doing a proper cost/benefit comparison that includes the advantage gained by the losses. For instance for 1944-45 what would the picture show if ground gained per tank lost look like?

If we took this tank-fixated gerrymandering to its logical conclusion we could say the Battle Of Berlin was a stunning victory for Germany.
Also have to factor in other issues, like AT guns, air support, the impact of other fronts, etc. If you're really going to be honest you need to consider all aspects of the war as a whole. In terms of this discussion talk of copying a T-34 and fielding that isn't really a great solution given that the original T-34 and T-34/85 wasn't that great to begin with. Developing something like the 'Mehrzweckpanzer' or just replacing both the Pz III and IV with a VK2001 development that Daimler had under development and would have been ready FAR sooner than any version of the Panther or T-34 knockoff was far more useful to the German war effort than the flawed DB VK3002.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VK_20

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