What if Vice Admiral Nagumo hadn't stopped the third strike?

[ChristopherPerrien]

Duck hunting was not allowed under the overall plan for Japan. The Kido Butai was needed elsewhere and it had to go there.

Where in the orders given to Nagumo is that stated?

By the orders themselves!

Excuse me, if I fail to explain the elephant in the room.

-Chris

[ChristopherPerrien]

With regards to the Japan's national petroleum supply, Evans & Peattie give their findings in their Japanese Naval tome "Kaigun", it is on page 412, Table 11-3: http://books.google.com/books?id=M-5feK ... -3&f=false

With regards to the targets of a "mythical" third strike, I don't see the harbor facilities receiving much attention. The only source to attacking the harbor facilities has apparently been Fuchida, and his testimony is, at best, of very dubious worth. I believe Admiral Chuichi Hara stated the Japanese position best, when he referred to land targets as "mere secondary objectives." After all, the Japanese were going for a quick victory, and were not concerned with the importance of the Pearl facilities that would come into play a year or two from now. The Japanese main concern lay with the American fleet anchored in Pearl Harbor...most of which had been missed in the first two strikes.

Now Takao, I truly forgive the "Pearl harbor strike force, Of which, of One, who later became one of those "born again Christians". Fuchida.

I kinda relate to,to"Fuchida being like 'Jimmy Swaggert", in the 1980's.

[OpanaPointer]

Duck hunting was not allowed under the overall plan for Japan. The Kido Butai was needed elsewhere and it had to go there.

Where in the orders given to Nagumo is that stated?

IGHQ orders.

[OpanaPointer]

The overall plan for the Southern Advance is in the Monographs. The utilization of the Kido Butai in the SWPA is stated clearly. Imperial Headquarters expected the carriers to be supporting the attacks on Malaya, NEI and the Philippines as soon as possible after the attack on Pearl. Remember, Yamamoto didn't expect to win the war there, he only expected to delay the crushing response he knew would be coming.

[Takao]

Where in the orders given to Nagumo is that stated?

Didn't we go down this road before with robdab, I seem to think we have...

[OpanaPointer]

From Monograph 97 (page 28):

5. Forces of First Air Fleet. (Carriers)

Hawaiian attack. Thereafter support Fourth Fleet operations and assist in capture of Southern areas.

[waldzee]

Duck hunting was not allowed under the overall plan for Japan. The Kido Butai was needed elsewhere and it had to go there.

Where in the orders given to Nagumo is that stated?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The question arises as to whether the entire mission should have been ‘called off”. Japan had acq1uired a huge empire ‘on the cheap’, was embroiled in a nasty war with China, & really had no other pressing need that to blackmail the KNIL into releasing more oil. If they had occupied Tarakan in Borneo, would america have sent in the Battleships?

Ironically, in Indochina they were sitting on all the oil they needed in the Red River Delta.
( Maybe that is why Fuchida became a born again Christian , Chris! The Shinto Kamis were rather poor at pointing to ‘the patch”
?Looks like shooting your duck gun at every body in sight- including the Grizzlies...

[OpanaPointer]

You lost me. Call off the Pearl Harbor Attack, or call of the whole Southern Expansion?

[BDV]

The whole thing. One cockamammie idea, possibly worse than Barbarossa.

"We're stuck in a huge mess in China, with no way out, let's make our Cold War with world's largest empire and world's largest economy into shooting wars! Banzai!"

[OpanaPointer]

The whole thing. One cockamammie idea, possibly worse than Barbarossa.

"We're stuck in a huge mess in China, with no way out, let's make our Cold War with world's largest empire and world's largest economy into shooting wars! Banzai!"

"Just one more thing and we'll win and be finished with this. Just one more thing." The Emperor heard that four years running. There was no exit strategy for the China Incident because the militarists couldn't retreat without losing face, and they were willing to send their beloved empire to Hell to avoid that. Ego run amok, ego with guns.

[glenn239]

“Hawaiian attack. Thereafter support Fourth Fleet operations and assist in capture of Southern areas...”

This says nothing about Naguo having to depart Hawaii on 7 December, about his being ordered to be in a rush, or anything like that. You indicated there is an order to that effect. Please post it.

[OpanaPointer]

“Hawaiian attack. Thereafter support Fourth Fleet operations and assist in capture of Southern areas...”

This says nothing about Naguo having to depart Hawaii on 7 December, about his being ordered to be in a rush, or anything like that. You indicated there is an order to that effect. Please post it.

When I get a chance to dig it out. You have to remember that I've been reading this stuff for 45+ years and I didn't always take notes when I read it. The Monographs have a discussion of the agreements and compromises between the IJA and IJN if you want to look into them.

[glenn239]

No, just post the part where Nagumo is ordered not to loitre at Hawaii but is instead ordered to withdraw immediately after recovering the 2nd Wave.

[OpanaPointer]

No, just post the part where Nagumo is ordered not to loitre at Hawaii but is instead ordered to withdraw immediately after recovering the 2nd Wave.

I'll post what I intend to post.

[Takao]

No, just post the part where Nagumo is ordered not to loitre at Hawaii but is instead ordered to withdraw immediately after recovering the 2nd Wave.

Granted this has been done to death on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=116265&hilit=Nagumo%2C+orders

Exhibit 8-B - Volume 13 of the Congressional Hearing, page 418.
reconstruction of Combined Fleet Ultrasecret Operation Order

Combined Fleet Ultrasecret Operation Order - (essentials)
Flagship NAGATO HIROSHIMA-WAN
22 Nov. 41
YAMAMOTO, Isoroku
CinC Combined Fleet

Combined Fleet Order
A. The Task Force will move out from HITOKAPPU-WAN and proceed to the HAWAII area, maintaining the greatest secrecy as to its movements and a close warch against all submarine or air attacks. At the opening of hostilities the Task Force will attack the main strength of the UNITED STATES Fleet in the HAWAII area and inflict crippling damage on it.
The first attack will be at dawn on X-Day (to be given in later order). At the conclusion of the air attacks the force will regroup and withdrawn immediately to JAPAN, being prepared at all times to meet enemy counterattacks.
B. In the event an agreement is reached in the negotiations with the UNITED STATES, the Task Force will immediately return to JAPAN.

Of course, glenn239 will likely respond that this is only a reconstruction of the order and not an original, and that the memory of the Japanese officers is faulty and that the reconstructed order is incorrect. Just as likely, glenn239 would be correct, given the contradictory use of "attack"; The first attack will be at dawn on X-Day and "attacks"; At the conclusion of the attacks the force will regroup and withdrawn...(Were they referring to using multiple attacks at Pearl or were they referring to the two waves of aircraft used to attack Pearl) IIRC, robdab tried the same. In the end, with all the pertinent documents having been destroyed, there is no concrete proof one way or the other, which is why one can argue either side(and they have been for decades).

You believe what you want to believe, but I believe that Nagumo was returning to Japan under orders from Yamamoto.