Black Boat reported in New Book

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Atrevida
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Black Boat reported in New Book

#1

Post by Atrevida » 30 Apr 2015, 20:54

I refer to page 11 (16 February 2012) requesting advice when the book mentioned below is published so that the thread can be revived. The book has now appeared in print and contains details of the first known admission by a U-boat hand that he sailed aboard a so-called "black boat".

Klaus Willmann: "U 188 - An Eye-Witness Account from the Second World War", Frontline Books (Pen & Sword)
ISBN 978-1-184832-760-3

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Ifor
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#2

Post by Ifor » 30 Apr 2015, 21:53

Could someone enlighten me as to what a black boat is?


Sid Guttridge
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#3

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 May 2015, 12:18

Hi Atrevida,

What about: Hirschfeld: The Secret Diary of a U-Boat NCO, 1940-1946?

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#4

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 May 2015, 12:25

Hi Ifor,

I was wondering the same myself.

I found the following: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kP3 ... 35&f=false

It says, "A "black boat" was a German U-boat for which it has proved impossible to find an official document trail relating to its origins."

This phrase appears to be an invention by post-war researchers. It seems to be particularly appealing to conspiracy theorists.

You will find a previous discussion about one supposed "black boat" at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=113408

"Atrevida" on this thread appears to be the same as "Ohdruf" on the link.

Cheers,

Sid.

Knouterer
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#5

Post by Knouterer » 01 May 2015, 13:07

There are also people - quite possibly the same people in some cases - who believe in "black helicopters".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_helicopter

In the Netherlands, there have been many sightings of unidentified persons riding BLACK BICYCLES, and my sensational new book proves beyond possible doubt that they are involved in a dark and sinister plot to blow up the dikes and flood half the country.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

Atrevida
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#6

Post by Atrevida » 03 May 2015, 22:34

The received knowledge is that X number of U-boats were commissioned into Kriegsmarine service and there could not possibly have been a single one more. A "black boat" is simply a U-boat which cannot be accounted for and therefore challenges the Allied statistics.

The boat mentioned in the book "U 188" aboard which Anton Staller served cannot be identified from amongst the tally of commissioned U-boats and is therefore "a black boat". "U 235" mentioned in the book"Hirschfeld" was a black boat given the operational number of a Type VII boat which was either in commission or sunk.

If the historians had merely said, "Well of course, possibly the Germans might have had a couple of boats in reserve which the manufacturers or the Kriegsmarine failed to declare for operations in the event of defeat ," everybody would have accepted the fact as obvious and we would have heard nothing more about it.

Atrevida
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#7

Post by Atrevida » 03 May 2015, 23:06

Incidentally, since a certain member seems anxious to draw the attention of the forum to my former identity, I would point out that as the result of a request a couple of years ago to the forum managers I was allowed to change my identity from "Ohrdruf" to "Atrevida" and awarded a new password. For some time I had been experiencing difficulties signing in. There is nothing more sinister in the change of name than that.

Actually there was something else which I noticed in Staller's book during the translation which might be thought more important than the "black boat" episode and I shall post that during the week. Nothing what you might call controversial, but weird.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#8

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 May 2015, 19:09

Hi Atrevida,

As the subject of U-235 has come up as a so-called "black boat", it is worth putting up the relevant parts of the post by Peter in my link above:

Conspiracy theorists have been known to miss the fact that U 235 was..... an elderly patched up 1942 built training boat of Type VIIC which had been badly bomb damaged and sunk on 14 May 1943 at the Germaniawerft shipbuilders in Kiel during a raid by bombers of 8th USAAF.

U 235 was lifted from the bottom and repaired being returned to service on 29 Oct 1943 but relegated to training only duties - I suspect that the Kriegsmarine realised that given the extent of the damage and repairs required they could not trust that she would withstand the rigours of warfare on the open ocean.

U235 was sunk in error in the Kattegat at 0700hrs on 14 April, 1945 in position 5744North x 1039East, by the German torpedo boat T17 in a depth charge attack, mistaken for an intruding Russian submarine.

Her crew were killed and are commemorated on the U-boat Memorial
Aulenbach Alfred FkMt. 15.03.1922
Barz Paul MtrOGfr. 06.02.1924
Bergmann Waldemar MaschMt 14.03.1921
Bochholz Erwin MaschMt. 20.07.1922
Brehm Otto OBtsMt 06.06.1922
Brög Georg MtrGfr 23.10.1924
Dehn Karl BtsMt 04.02.1921
Erfurth Paul MechOGfr 30.04.1925
Fischer Helmut MtrHGfr 28.04.1924
Francke Anton MtrOGfr. 02.10.1924
Golde Horst OMasch. 10.11.1917
Götze Walter MaschOGfr. 16.10.1925
Groth Jens-Peter Lt.z.S. 26.06.1921
Härth Hilmar MaschOGfr. 10.10.1925
Hartmann Herbert FkOGfr 16.11.1925
Henke Harro MtrOGfr. 15.02.1922
Hillenbach Karl OMaschMt 17.05.1921
HUISGEN FRIEDRICH KL
Itzek Alfred Mtr. 15.02.1922
Jakmann Arno MtrOGfr. 23.07.1923
Jakobs Anton Mtr. 03.05.1924
Janson Otto MechGfr. 27.02.1925
Jurisch Helmut MaschOGfr. 18.12.1924
Kästner Otto OMaschMt. 08.08.1921
Krambs Otto OMaschMt 08.01.1919
Kuhn Max-Christian FkMt 19.08.1921
Lommerzheim Hans MaschOGfr 05.05.1924
Loos Hermann MaschOGfr 26.02.1923
Moritz Helmut OMasch. 31.01.1915
Müller Herbert Lt.z.S. 12.02.1924
Neulinger Herbert Lt.z.S. 07.03.1923
Ott Günter FkOGfr 30.06.1924
Rockstroh Gerhard-Wilhelm MaschOGfr 27.06.1923
Rotter Helmut MtrOGfr. 19.06.1925
Ruchotzke Bruno MtrOGfr. 09.12.1925
Sahrhage Walter MaschOGfr 09.04.1925
Schächinger Alfred FkOGfr 15.03.1925
Scherb Otto Maat 05.02.1915
Schilling Günther MaschGfr 05.03.1924
Schmitz Günther MaschOGfr 17.11.1924
Schwenzfeier Leo BtsMt 06.01.1923
Steinborn Erich MtrHGfr 10.05.1922
Stolzenau Erhard OLt.ing LI 11.12.1923
Surbach Paul MtrOGfr 21.04.1924
Thote Paul OStrm. 24.06.1920
Winkler Erich MaschOGfr. 14.07.1924


There doesn't seem to be much mysterious about U 235.

Similarly, the British submarine Thetis sank on trials, was raised and commissioned under another name. Nobody talks of her as a "black boat".

Cheers,

Sid

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Ifor
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#9

Post by Ifor » 04 May 2015, 22:17

Sid, Atrevida
Much obliged.
Ifor

Atrevida
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#10

Post by Atrevida » 05 May 2015, 16:03

Sid

If you read my second paragraph above more closely, you will see that what I am saying is that the number U 235 was given to another boat while the original Type VII with that number was either at that time still in commission, or sunk. The number "U 235" was found convenient because black boat "U 235" was to accompany U 234 to Japan.

Hirschfeld reported the Japanese officer Tomonaga as saying that "U 235" had been intended to take material to Japan, but this decision had then been countermanded. Huisgen's boat U 235 was a Type VII for training purposes in the Baltic and was obviously never intended for long-range operations, as Hirschfeld pointed out in the text of his book.

A U-boat bearing the running number U 235 was reported by the Argentine naval and intelligence authorities to have disembarked at least one passenger at Mar del Plata shortly postwar, and it may be that the destination of the boat "U 235" originally intended for Japan became Argentina.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#11

Post by Sid Guttridge » 05 May 2015, 19:39

Hi Atrevida,

There was no duplicate U 235 and no substantive evidence that there was.

You reported on another thread that an Argentine naval officer had seen "U 235" painted on a conning tower in 1945. This was a pre-war practice abandoned in 1939.

Cheers,

Sid.

Atrevida
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#12

Post by Atrevida » 06 May 2015, 15:47

The report came from postwar Argentine documents. The practice of painting running numbers on the conning tower of U-boats was discontinued at the outbreak of war but was re-started at the end of the war. Anton Staller identified the black boat of which he became a crew member by the running number it had been assigned.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#13

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 May 2015, 13:46

Hi Atrevida,

You write, "The practice of painting running numbers on the conning tower of U-boats...... was re-started at the end of the war."

The evidence for this is what?

The photos of U 977 and U 530 in Argentina after the war show no evidence of such numbers on their conning towers.

A curious Sid.

Bokkop
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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#14

Post by Bokkop » 30 Jun 2015, 19:11

Atrevida wrote:Actually there was something else which I noticed in Staller's book during the translation which might be thought more important than the "black boat" episode and I shall post that during the week. Nothing what you might call controversial, but weird.
Is this a good time to post the important information?

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Re: Black Boat reported in New Book

#15

Post by Åkerberg » 01 Jul 2015, 12:44

"The practice of painting running numbers on the conning tower of U-boats...... was re-started at the end of the war."
Yes by the allies to ID some of the captured uboote...

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