Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

[Rob Stuart]

This is all nonsense. Japanese submarine operations have been exhaustively studied by serious historians since 1945 and it is quite certain that Japan had no secret bases in the Americas. Instead of pursuing idiotic third-hand tales of Yaqui Indian raids (seriously?), why don't you go to a library and borrow a copy of The Japanese Submarine Force and World War II (https://books.google.ca/books/about/The ... JdpxXkIBoC).

[williamjpellas]

Thanks for the input, Rob. But I was quite clear up front about the reasons for, and also the parameters of, my search for information here. The stories found on "the wanderling" website are largely---not entirely, but largely---anecdotal. That is, most of them come from what he claims was personal testimony from WWII veterans he knew personally. There are some documentary sources that he cites, ie, articles and books and so on, but there's no getting around the fact that most of the content of his claims comes from anecdotes. Thus it is difficult to affirm or deny their veracity, particularly since by now, most of those veterans are dead, whether they were telling the whole truth, or some of the truth leavened with exaggeration, or making things up out of whole cloth while having a few too many beers at the VFW, or what have you. However, because the stories he tells on his website are otherwise, to my mind, plausible on their surface, I came here to solicit input from people who may have access to more specific and better documented information that would either add to and substantiate "wanderling", OR relegate his stories to the tall tales file: interesting but more fiction than truth.

Unfortunately most of the responses in this thread, to this point, are either 1) harrumph, harrumph, how dare you, because no self-respecting student of the second world war could ever give any credence to such stories because they're simply preposterous, dear boy, and none of my favorite authors/professors/blowhards ever mentioned any of this, so therefore you're an idiot, or 2) abject ridicule. I note that very few posting here have, quite obviously, actually bothered to read any of the sources and information I have posted or linked. Nor have most responses attempted to illustrate, with their own documentation, how and why the information posted here is false, exaggerated, or otherwise unreliable.

It is not enough to appeal to established authority (which when sufficiently distorted becomes the "appeal to authority logical fallacy") simply because the authority (author) in question is not infallable and may have missed something or otherwise not had access to additional sources or documentation that could lead to different conclusions. As for ridicule, in my life I have better things to do than waste time mocking someone merely for asking some questions, but hey, that's me.

PS I note that the book you referenced was published in 1995. That probably means that the author did not make much use of the huge wave of documents that were declassified by NARA (National Archives and Records Administration, headquartered in College Park, MD) that same year. There's certainly nothing wrong with mentioning older works or pulling from them for research, and of course the best historical writing stands the test of time because of it thoroughness. In the case of declassified documents, however, at least of the American variety, there are demonstrable gaps in many older histories precisely because their writers did not have access to top secret information that was still being held in strictest confidence at the time they were writing. The first major wave of declassifications in the US took place in 1978, with the second in 1995, the 50th year after the war. There are still millions of papers and mountains of information that have never seen the light of day since the war itself, both at NARA and elsewhere (I am told that there are literally many tons of papers held at Wright-Patterson AFB, for example) and there are many more that are still classified to this day, and thus only accessible through FOIA requests, if even then. It is in light of this background that I came here to ask my questions and post what I have found to see if anything can be verified or not. I will repeat that I see nothing in what "wanderling" says that I find particularly crazy or hard to believe. Now I'm looking for the documents, if they exist.

[Ironmachine]

That's all well and good, but what you do not find hard to believe may be unbelievable to others. I see a good james bond story in what "wanderling" says, but I don't believe it.
For example, the claim made by the "Hunting Hitler" documentary about bases in Spain is, as cited by you (I haven't watched it), very confusing: do they mean that there were two secret German submarine bases in Spain or that the German submarines covertly (for the Allies) used two Spanish bases? Either option should have left quite a paper trail to be found, but AFAIK there is not a single documentary evidence nor any reliable witness testimony that support the idea that there were secret U-boat bases in Spain during WW2. Did the documentary mention where in Spain were those bases? I suspect they didn't. Then it would be a simple matter of going there and do some search.
Of course, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but considering that it is well know (there are documents, as I posted) that German submarines were resupplied in Spanish harbours, why would the Germans do that if they have secret bases available? Obviously, if you are asking for a prove of the negative of such a general statement as "there were secret U-boat bases in Spain in WW2" you would not find it, but all the existing evidence points to the non-existence of the "secret bases" in Spain.

[williamjpellas]

Hey, ironmachine, thanks for your thoughtful reply!

I have only seen the documentary series "Hunting Hitler" once, and then only the first handful of episodes. IIRC, the claim in that series is that there were, in fact, two actual U-boat bases located in Spain itself during WWII. Assuming I'm remembering that detail correctly, it would mean that these two facilities were operating in addition to the resupply operations by surface ships in Spanish harbors, as mentioned upthread. Perhaps someone reading this has access to the program and can check on this particular detail.

I quite agree that wanderling's website would make a great James Bond story! All I'm saying is, stranger things have turned out to be true, and by the way, it is known that the Panama Canal was high up on Japan's strategic targets list during the war. In fact, they planned and conducted extensive rehearsals for an attack on the Canal from the Atlantic side, an operation that would have utilized their small fleet of aircraft carrying submarines (the I-400 class and a couple of slightly smaller boats that could carry two planes apiece instead of the three on board the 400s). Note that this assault would have been very late in the war, probably some time in 1945. One of the reasons wanderling's stories jumped out at me is that they would help to explain why Japan decided to go the long way around the world instead of coming at the Canal from the Pacific side. Between possible US attacks on Magdalena Bay---the more northern of the two said-to-exist I-boat bases in Mexico---and the loss of the Galapagos Islands as a forward staging area, it may be that the Pacific side was simply too well defended and watched. Obviously the Atlantic side was well guarded, too, but Japan was directly across the Pacific from Panama and so a submarine based assault by Japanese forces from the Atlantic, particularly an asymmetric attack from underwater aircraft carriers (!!), would have a better chance of being able to utilize the element of surprise.

[Ironmachine]

there is a number of reasons why the whole "secret U-boat bases in Spain" affair is highly unlikely:
[*]A resupply operation operating in addition to a pair of "secret" U-boat bases would have been a really stupid movement, because the former could have attract unwanted attention to the presence of German submarines in Spanish waters, putting the "secret bases" in danger of being exposed.
[*]Considering the small number of U-boats involved in the resupply operation, it is strange that they could not be serviced in those "secret bases" if they really existed.
[*]While such a small operation (the resupply from German ships) had left a paper trail in Spanish archives, there is nothing on the construction and operation of a pair of submarine bases.
[*]There is nothing either in German archives regarding the construction and operation of the bases, the submarines being serviced there, or even the material and equipment sent to build them (as almost anything needed would have been unavailable in Spain).
[*]Though there should have been a large number of people, both German and Spanish, directly involved in the construction and operation of such bases, plus the men of the U-boats serviced there, AFAIK no credible witness had come out to talk about those bases.
[*]When were those bases built? The SCW ended on 1 April 1939 and Germany invaded Poland on 1 September 1939.
I can go on, but I think it is already clear that we can be almost 100% sure there were no "secret U-boat bases" in Spain in WW2.
Did they mention in the "Hunting Hitler" documentary where in Spain were the bases located? I think it is very significant if they didn't.

[williamjpellas]

Ironmachine, you are of course asking all the right questions for anyone delving deeper into the subject. Unfortunately I have only seen the documentary once, and I do not own a copy on DVD. So for now, I have to confess that I have no way of definitively answering your questions vis a vis the claims being made in the documentary.

Meanwhile I am hoping that someone will have some reliable documentation that can shed further light on the alleged-to-exist Japanese I-boat resupply bases in Mexico, and their alleged use by U-boats later in the war.

[HR715]

Given that enigma was broken , how secret could a " secret base" actually be ?

[Rob Stuart]

Meanwhile I am hoping that someone will have some reliable documentation that can shed further light on the alleged-to-exist Japanese I-boat resupply bases in Mexico, and their alleged use by U-boats later in the war.

Mexico declared war on Japan, Germany and Italy on 22 May 1942, and there is no way in hell that any Axis navy could have established a secret submarine resupply base in an enemy country.

[Rzewsky]

Excuse me, with your permission, I will add a few new reports about Kriegsmarine....

In 1989, the U 534 submarine was discovered on the bottom of Kattegat. It was sunk by British pilots in May 1945. The last raid of the submarine is connected with mysterious circumstances. On the night of May 5, 1945, U 534 withdrew from the naval base in Kiel, heading north to the Norwegian Sea. The surviving two members of her team argue that on the eve of departure late at night to the pier two vehicles with abwehr numbers arrived. The staff colonel gave the commander of the submarine a written order from Großadmiral Dönitz to take on board the "special importance" cargo and follow the place indicated in the sealed packet of seals. The package should be opened only when entering the open sea.

To load cargo of special importance started immediately. It consisted of eleven aluminum boxes, identical in size but different in weight. Some were so heavy that several stout sailors could hardly manage them. The captain's assistant, who led the loading and placement of the cargo in the cramped spaces of the boat, decided that there was ammunition, and asked to observe special precautions for the crew members. However, the Colonel, who was always looking at his watch, told his assistant that the cargo was not dangerous, but it was very valuable for the Reich.

Even then, both the helper and those who were directly engaged in the placement of cargo, there was a conviction that in boxes gold in ingots and some extremely important documents that needed to be urgently taken to a safe place.

But the most striking thing was that, as the survivor of the U 534 captain's survivor, the opened package contained an order to follow the shores of the Soviet Arctic, the Laptev Sea, then to the secret base at the mouth of the Lena with a stop at the intermediate bases in the fjords of Norway, then On the Northern Earth. Here the cargo was to be unloaded, then carefully immobilized in the indicated place and, refueling, return to the same route to Kiel. In case of successful fulfillment of the difficult task, all members of the submarine were waiting for a reward.

Full text in Russian
http://ozersk74.com/tainy/2960-sokrovis ... arine.html

[williamjpellas]

Meanwhile I am hoping that someone will have some reliable documentation that can shed further light on the alleged-to-exist Japanese I-boat resupply bases in Mexico, and their alleged use by U-boats later in the war.

Mexico declared war on Japan, Germany and Italy on 22 May 1942, and there is no way in hell that any Axis navy could have established a secret submarine resupply base in an enemy country.

Of course they could have. Mexico was and is divided by intense sectarian politics. It practically had a dual government during WWII, though the carping by the then recently removed party was tamped down to a considerable extent by the global conflict. Mexico is also a very large nation with an extensive coastline and very little in the way of a capable navy. In fact, the vast majority of Mexican military power was and is concentrated in its sizable land army, as is the case with many Latin American nations (though not all of them). The reason for this is that the army serves at least as much to keep the ruling party and its related interests in power---that is, to defend against internal enemies and insurrection---as it does to defend against foreign aggression.

As a small anecdote to illustrate the weakness of Mexico's navy, my father's ship from WWII---the USS Joseph Auman, APD-117---was sold to Mexico right after the war. It was still in service in 1990. The Auman was a "tin can", a converted Rudderow-class destroyer escort, cheaply made and never remotely intended to last as long as it did, particularly long after it was totally obsolete.

So, WWII Mexico, while not a "banana republic", was certainly not a strong military power even in Latin American terms, as Brazil, Argentina, and Chile have been and continue to be. Its navy was and is nearly nonexistent, and its antisubmarine capabilities were and are slim to none. Add in the size of the country and its long coastline, and it is entirely possible that a clandestine Axis base or hidden supply dump could have been kept secret.

[Felix C]

Since we secured the German Navy records at the end of the war, if there were bases in Mexico that would have made reading fodder many years ago.

[Rob Stuart]

Meanwhile I am hoping that someone will have some reliable documentation that can shed further light on the alleged-to-exist Japanese I-boat resupply bases in Mexico, and their alleged use by U-boats later in the war.

Mexico declared war on Japan, Germany and Italy on 22 May 1942, and there is no way in hell that any Axis navy could have established a secret submarine resupply base in an enemy country.

Of course they could have. Mexico was and is divided by intense sectarian politics. It practically had a dual government during WWII, though the carping by the then recently removed party was tamped down to a considerable extent by the global conflict. Mexico is also a very large nation with an extensive coastline and very little in the way of a capable navy. In fact, the vast majority of Mexican military power was and is concentrated in its sizable land army, as is the case with many Latin American nations (though not all of them). The reason for this is that the army serves at least as much to keep the ruling party and its related interests in power---that is, to defend against internal enemies and insurrection---as it does to defend against foreign aggression.

As a small anecdote to illustrate the weakness of Mexico's navy, my father's ship from WWII---the USS Joseph Auman, APD-117---was sold to Mexico right after the war. It was still in service in 1990. The Auman was a "tin can", a converted Rudderow-class destroyer escort, cheaply made and never remotely intended to last as long as it did, particularly long after it was totally obsolete.

So, WWII Mexico, while not a "banana republic", was certainly not a strong military power even in Latin American terms, as Brazil, Argentina, and Chile have been and continue to be. Its navy was and is nearly nonexistent, and its antisubmarine capabilities were and are slim to none. Add in the size of the country and its long coastline, and it is entirely possible that a clandestine Axis base or hidden supply dump could have been kept secret.

Mexico did not need a navy to detect and then eliminate clandestine naval bases on its coasts. Submarine depot ships, tankers, and so on anchored in selected bays are not going to go undetected for very long by fishermen, rural police, or whoever, and then the game would be up. A single Mexican Army field artillery piece brought to the scene would be enough to send them packing. And how in hell would the German or Japanese navies get the support vessels needed to sustain an overseas submarine base to Mexico across oceans dominated by the Allied navies? The whole argument is pointless anyway, since the movements of every Axis submarine, submarine depot ship, and tanker which served during WW2 are well documented, and it is known for a fact that there were no Axis submarine bases in the Western hemisphere.

[williamjpellas]

Since we secured the German Navy records at the end of the war, if there were bases in Mexico that would have made reading fodder many years ago.

Nope. There were and are many military secrets that have stayed that way for years, decades, even centuries. For example, to this day no one knows the precise formula for the Byzantine Empire's secret weapon, Greek Fire. Good guesses exist, but they are still just that: guesses. For another, how long did the WWII Japanese atomic bomb projects remain unknown to the general public? Answer: nearly 20 years, until Derek de Solla Price and his Japanese graduate student, Eri Yagi, published a few of the barest details and a couple of Japanese scientists' names in the early 60s in The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. But it wasn't until 1985, when Robert Wilcox published his own, far more extensive investigation, Japan's Secret War, that anything like a comprehensive picture of what Japan was trying to do appeared in public. So no, I don't believe it is impossible for WWII U-boat and I-boat bases to remain undiscovered to this day. Again, I have come across some interesting and, to my mind, fairly convincing anecdotal evidence and am asking if anyone has seen any documentary evidence.

[williamjpellas]

Mexico did not need a navy to detect and then eliminate clandestine naval bases on its coasts. Submarine depot ships, tankers, and so on anchored in selected bays are not going to go undetected for very long by fishermen, rural police, or whoever, and then the game would be up. A single Mexican Army field artillery piece brought to the scene would be enough to send them packing. And how in hell would the German or Japanese navies get the support vessels needed to sustain an overseas submarine base to Mexico across oceans dominated by the Allied navies? The whole argument is pointless anyway, since the movements of every Axis submarine, submarine depot ship, and tanker which served during WW2 are well documented, and it is known for a fact that there were no Axis submarine bases in the Western hemisphere.

First, the clandestine bases alleged to have existed were probably little more than glorified supply dumps. Rudimentary facilities at best, and probably mostly small stockpiles of ammunition cases and 55 gallon fuel drums and the like, hidden in seaside forest or jungle. As for how the German or Japanese navies got support vessels "...across oceans dominated by the Allied navies", they were able to do so with considerable success until well into the war. German and Italian surface ship blockade runners made successful round trips to Japan as late as 1943 and even later, and German Q-ships like the Kormoran were likewise quite effective. In fact, they sank far more Allied merchant tonnage than the entire kriegsmarine conventional warship fleet.

http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/Marauders ... rmanA.html

http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/MaraudersWW2/23Tables12and3.html

https://www.amazon.com/Axis-Blockade-Ru ... 0870219081

/viewtopic.php?t=5321

And no, "the movements of EVERY Axis submarine, submarine depot ship, and tanker which served during WW2" are NOT universally well documented. Nor were such movements publicized even during the Cold War, nor are they today, though of course it is true that MOST such movements and deployments can be reliably reconstructed in the historical record.

As for a single artillery piece putting U-boats and I-boats to flight, I would point out that the story told by the American Texas Ranger describes a raid by irregulars against one of the alleged-to-exist submarine bases. No artillery there, but lots of small arms and, I would have to think, grenades. The raid was said to have been successful.

[williamjpellas]

Excuse me, with your permission, I will add a few new reports about Kriegsmarine....

In 1989, the U-534 submarine was discovered on the bottom of Kattegat. It was sunk by British pilots in May 1945. The last raid of the submarine is connected with mysterious circumstances. On the night of May 5, 1945, U-534 withdrew from the naval base in Kiel, heading north to the Norwegian Sea. The surviving two members of her team argue that on the eve of departure late at night to the pier two vehicles with abwehr numbers arrived. The staff colonel gave the commander of the submarine a written order from Admiral Dönitz to take on board the "special importance" cargo and follow the place indicated in the sealed packet of seals. The package should be opened only when entering the open sea.

To load cargo of special importance started immediately. It consisted of eleven aluminum boxes, identical in size but different in weight. Some were so heavy that several stout sailors could hardly manage them. The captain's assistant, who led the loading and placement of the cargo in the cramped spaces of the boat, decided that there was ammunition, and asked to observe special precautions for the crew members. However, the Colonel, who was always looking at his watch, told his assistant that the cargo was not dangerous, but it was very valuable for the Reich.

Even then, both the helper and those who were directly engaged in the placement of cargo, there was a conviction that in boxes gold in ingots and some extremely important documents that needed to be urgently taken to a safe place.

But the most striking thing was that, as the survivor of the U-534 captain's survivor, the opened package contained an order to follow the shores of the Soviet Arctic, the Laptev Sea, then to the secret base at the mouth of the Lena with a stop at the intermediate bases in the fjords of Norway, then On the Northern Earth. Here the cargo was to be unloaded, then carefully immobilized in the indicated place and, refueling, return to the same route to Kiel. In case of successful fulfillment of the difficult task, all members of the submarine were waiting for a reward.

Full text in Russian
http://ozersk74.com/tainy/2960-sokrovis ... arine.html

Yes, I have read about at least one secret German U-boat base in the far Arctic. According to Simon Gunson, his source for the description of the German base was a Russian document. This might have been the same one you reference here, I'm not sure. The mouth of the Lena River is an extensive delta, as shown in the Landsat image below, and there would have been many places to hide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Rive ... t_2000.jpg

Do you know if the U-534 successfully delivered its cargo and was then destroyed, or was it sunk on the outbound leg of the journey? And do you know of any WW2 Soviet Navy archives available anywhere on the web? I was able to find some records documenting a number of deadly encounters between Russian and German units in the extreme north, but there were mostly from German sources. Many thanks for weighing in on this topic!