Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
User avatar
Halibutt
Member
Posts: 182
Joined: 08 Aug 2005, 14:46
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#136

Post by Halibutt » 10 Feb 2015, 00:07

Sid and others, did you notice the title of this thread? Nothing to do with Hungary, Romania or Trianon. As much as I appreciate your comments, why don't we stick to the topic then?
michael mills wrote:Peter, I would like to go back to the maps you posted showing the percentages of Catholics and Polish-speakers by district in the Lithuanian-Belarusian borderland.

I am particularly interested in the small district where 83% of the population were Polish speakers but only 56% were Catholic. I do not know what the name of that district is; perhaps you have that information.
There's a pretty little article on Polish Autonomous Districts on English Wikipedia, it's a good starting point.

As to the 1926 census, bear in mind that its results are hardly compatible with modern sociological standards. The Soviet power was still pretty weak, there were still millions of displaced people wandering around Soviet Union, representatives of higher social strata hiding in the countryside pretending to be peasants and so on. This might also explain why there were so few people of non-Russian nationalities reported in formerly multi-cultural areas like Odessa or Kiev.

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#137

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 10 Feb 2015, 03:30

Sid Guttridge wrote:From the Romanian point of view, a continuation of the gradual demographic erosion of the Hungarian position since 1919
But to which extent is this erosion taking place in reality (assimilation?, emigration?, lower fertility?) and to which only on paper?

=================================================

Below some data illustrating the effects of post-war deportations on ethnic Polish population in the Grodno-Vilna areas of Belarus:

This data is from an article written (in Polish) by a Belarusian from Grodno - Siarhiej Tokć:

http://kamunikat.fontel.net/pdf/bzh/22/03.pdf

Examples from three raions (counties) - Wasiliszki, Wołkowysk and Skidel. If we count these three counties altogether then their total population in 1945-1947 (Skidel in 1947, the other two counties in 1945) was - according to Belarusian data - 124.451 including 60.615 Poles, 61.295 Belarusians, 1.407 Russians and 1.134 others. By 1959 their population was 136.382 including 43.356 Poles, 80.307 Belarusians, 9.637 Russians and 3.082 others. So as we can see the percentage of Russians among the population increased from 1.13% in 1945-1947 to 7.07% in 1959.

In 1945 Poles were an absolute majority in Wasiliszki and Wołkowysk. By 1959 they were still a relative majority (49.2%) only in Wasiliszki:
Deportations.png
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.


GregSingh
Member
Posts: 3877
Joined: 21 Jun 2012, 02:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#138

Post by GregSingh » 10 Feb 2015, 07:08

michael mills wrote: I am particularly interested in the small district where 83% of the population were Polish speakers but only 56% were Catholic. I do not know what the name of that district is; perhaps you have that information.
It was Szczuczyn County, Nowogrodzkie Voivodeship. Today Shchuchyn (Шчучын), Bielorussia.

1931 census data:

56.1% Roman Catholic
36.2% Orthodox
07.3% Judaistic
00.3% other

83.5% Polish
09.7% Bielorussian
06.2% Yiddish/Hebrew
00.3% other

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#139

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Feb 2015, 15:17

Hi Peter,

You ask, "But to which extent is this erosion taking place in reality (assimilation?, emigration?, lower fertility?) and to which only on paper?"

It appears that some of the changes are so extensive, for whatever reason, that they must to some degree be more than only on paper. To repeat a striking statistic from my earlier post:

"The Hungarian-speaking proportion of the Transilvanian population has fallen in cities like Cluj-Napoca and the four previously Hungarian-majority counties. In 1910 a Hungarian census claimed that about 82% of Cluj's population were Hungarian. In 2011 a Romanian census gave about 82% as Romanian! "

It looks as though, although the rural population balance may not have changed much, that in the expanding cities may have.

Cheers,

Sid.

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#140

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 11 Feb 2015, 01:08

Coming back to Poles from Lithuania (those who stayed and those who were deported to Poland).

Previously I wrote:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1924661
Number of Poles deported by railway from Lithuania after WW2:

In total 274,163 from Western Belarus (areas which on 01.09.1939 belonged to Poland) and 197,156 from Lithuania in first repatriation (1944-1948) as well as 100,630 from Western Belarus and 46,552 from Lithuania in second repatriation (1955-1959).

(...)

According to official Soviet Union's 1959 census there were still 230,107 Poles in Lithuania of whom 161,523 (70,2%) were rural population - as flights and deportations of 1944-1959 as well as previous wartime mortality affected urban Poles more than rural Poles.
Among the 197,156 from Lithuania in first repatriation, more than half - 107,613 - were from the city and the county of Wilno.

44.1% among those 197,156 were urban population, while 55,9% were rural population (or maybe the other way around?).

In terms of occupation 31.2% of the deported were craftsmen, 30.5% were intelligentsia (white-collar workers, teachers, professional soldiers, health-care workers, clergymen, etc.), 18.4% were peasants and 10.4% were workers. Other groups were 9.5%.

These numbers are from this article:

http://www.akwilno.pl/pdf/Ekspatriacja.pdf

According to this article areas annexed by Lithuania in October 1939 (6880 km2 incl. the city of Wilno) were inhabited by 549,000 people:

- 321,700 Poles
- 107,600 Jews
- 75,200 Belarusians
- 31,300 Lithuanians
- 9,000 Russians
- 4,200 others
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#141

Post by michael mills » 11 Feb 2015, 02:15

Sid,

Thank you for your welcome.

You wrote:
I have a 1952, English language, Soviet-published encyclopedia of the Ukrainian SSR that shows Ukrainian-speakers as the majority in both Donetsk and Lughansk at that time. It seems that the Soviet Union later imported workers from other parts of the USSR, whose common language was Russian, into these expanding industrial regions and thereby shifted the population balance in later decades. Latvia has inherited a similar Russian minority of similar recent origin.
and
Fascinating. Your link shows that in 1926 three regions of what is now Russia, but adjacent to Ukraine, had a Ukrainian-speaking majority.

Perhaps it is Ukraine that should now be making territorial demands on Russia, and not the other way around?
Donetsk and Lugansk are both situated on colonised land that up to the second half of the 18th century was part of Dasht-i-Kipchak. They were settled as mining areas in the late 19th Century, with colonists coming both from the north, from Russian-speaking areas, and from the west, from Ukrainian-speaking areas.

Thus, Russian-speakers have been a major component of the settler population in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions from the very beginning of colonial settlement under the aegis of the Russian Empire, and have been there as long as Ukrainian-speakers have.

The Bolshevik regime in Russia was the first to officially recognise the Ukrainian and Belarusian nationalities as entities separate from the Russian nationality, and to assign the East-Slavic-speaking population under its control to one of those three nationalities. I do not know what objective criterion the Soviet authorities used for that assignment, presumably native language. Since there are transitional dialects between Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian, it may well be that in some cases the assignment to one of the three nationalities rather than another was rather arbitrary.

It is noteworthy that in August 1917, the Provisional Government of the new Russian Republic recognised the jurisdiction of the Ukrainian Central Rada stationed at Kiev over the Governorates of Volhynia, Podolia, Kiev, Poltava, and the southern part of Chernigov, but refused to grant it jurisdiction over the Governorates of Kherson, Tavrida, Ekaterinoslav, and Kharkov. Perhaps that was because the Provisional Government considered that the population of those Governorates did not have the same unequivocally Ukrainian ethnic identity as that of the more westerly Governorates.

The Governorates recognised as having a Ukrainian identity had all formerly been part of the Polish Empire, which is why their population had evolved an identity different from that of the population of the northern regions which had come under the rule of Muscovy.

Donetsk and Lugansk were in 1918 both situated in Ekaterinoslav Governorate, an area considered by the Provisional Government as not being essentially Ukrainian in ethnic identity.

In any case, what determines whether a particular area should belong to a Russian or to a Ukrainian state should be the wishes of the population of that area. Not all Ukrainian-speakers, or Russian-speaking descendants of settlers who came originally from the ethnic Ukrainian heartland in the west, feel themselves to be non-Russian, and desire to be part of a Ukrainian state, particularly not one ruled by russophobic Ukrainian nationalists from the western regions.

User avatar
henryk
Member
Posts: 2559
Joined: 27 Jan 2004, 02:11
Location: London, Ontario

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#142

Post by henryk » 11 Feb 2015, 21:48

michael mills wrote:
The Bolshevik regime in Russia was the first to officially recognise the Ukrainian and Belarusian nationalities as entities separate from the Russian nationality, and to assign the East-Slavic-speaking population under its control to one of those three nationalities. I do not know what objective criterion the Soviet authorities used for that assignment, presumably native language. Since there are transitional dialects between Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian, it may well be that in some cases the assignment to one of the three nationalities rather than another was rather arbitrary.
The Czarist Russian censuses used the ethnicity terms: Russian, White Ruthenian (Belarusian) and Ruthenian (Ukrainian).

User avatar
Halibutt
Member
Posts: 182
Joined: 08 Aug 2005, 14:46
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#143

Post by Halibutt » 12 Feb 2015, 00:48

michael mills wrote:Donetsk and Lugansk are both situated on colonised land that up to the second half of the 18th century was part of Dasht-i-Kipchak. They were settled as mining areas in the late 19th Century, with colonists coming both from the north, from Russian-speaking areas, and from the west, from Ukrainian-speaking areas.
...and from anywhere else in the Russian Empire, to be precise. It was pretty much a Yukon-like land with people moving there in search for a better future. Hell, the original name of Donetsk is Yuzovka - it was named after its' founder, John Hughes, a British citizen. There was a sizeable Polish community there as well.
It is noteworthy that in August 1917, the Provisional Government of the new Russian Republic recognised the jurisdiction of the Ukrainian Central Rada stationed at Kiev over the Governorates of Volhynia, Podolia, Kiev, Poltava, and the southern part of Chernigov, but refused to grant it jurisdiction over the Governorates of Kherson, Tavrida, Ekaterinoslav, and Kharkov. Perhaps that was because the Provisional Government considered that the population of those Governorates did not have the same unequivocally Ukrainian ethnic identity as that of the more westerly Governorates.
This one is indeed noteworthy, but for another reason. The Russians were so keen to acknowledge independence of former Russian "colonies" mainly because they were losing control over them to the Germans and were hoping they could stir some dissent behind their lines. In the same way the Bolsheviks acknowledged Polish right to self-determination, but only after the Russian armies lost control over any Polish areas. And the same was true to Ukraine.

But how is that related to Wilno/Vilnius? Beats me...
Cheers

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#144

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 20 Feb 2015, 04:03

Data from 1921:
PUR_map_mixethnic1.jpg
PUR_map_mixethnic1.jpg (98.37 KiB) Viewed 3388 times
Data from 1931:
osc07n.jpg
osc07n.jpg (141.93 KiB) Viewed 3388 times
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#145

Post by michael mills » 21 Feb 2015, 02:16

Just a general comment:

The Polish claim to Vilnius has been based on essentially the same criterion as the former German claim to Danzig, ie the majority of the population being ethnically Polish and German respectively.

The Lithuanian claim to Vilnius was essentially based on the same criterion as that of the Polish claim to Danzig, ie prior ownership, Vilnius being originally inhabited by Lithuanians and Danzig by Poles (or at least Slavs related to Poles).

As a result of the Second World War, Vilnius has returned to Lithuanian sovereignty and Danzig to Polish. The best course in my opinion would be to leave that situation as it is.

The fact that there is today a considerable ethnic Polish minority in Vilnius suggests that Lithuania has been less ruthless in removing the Polish population of that city than Poland was in removing the ethnic German population of Danzig.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2623
Joined: 25 Feb 2013, 21:23

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#146

Post by gebhk » 24 Feb 2015, 16:07

michael mills wrote: As a result of the Second World War, Vilnius has returned to Lithuanian sovereignty and Danzig to Polish. The best course in my opinion would be to leave that situation as it is.
Given that no one aseide from yourself has suggested otherwise in this thread, I am a little confused as to the relevance of this comment.
michael mills wrote:The fact that there is today a considerable ethnic Polish minority in Vilnius suggests that Lithuania has been less ruthless in removing the Polish population of that city than Poland was in removing the ethnic German population of Danzig.
Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius
I would suggest that who stayed and who went had virtually everything to do with what the Soviet state thought appropriate and very little to do with the ruthlessness or otherwise of Poles and Lithuanians. That being said, data quoted earlier in this thread suggests the present Government of Poland supports Lithuanian ethnicity in Poland to a greater extent than the Lithuanian Government does the ethnicity of its Polish minority. I do not say this to beat the Polish drum but to suggest that good practice should be shared and encouraged regardless of boundaries. Maintaining ethnic diversity overall enriches the whole and I am glad to say that the majority of modern Danzigers I meet are proud of their city's roots - Polish, German and Free City in similar measure.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#147

Post by michael mills » 25 Feb 2015, 06:39

Maintaining ethnic diversity overall enriches the whole and I am glad to say that the majority of modern Danzigers I meet are proud of their city's roots - Polish, German and Free City in similar measure.
How many of those Danzigers are descendants of the German inhabitants of the city who comprised the overwhelming majority before the Second World War?

The situation is that the German population of Danzig was entirely expelled in 1945 and replaced by Poles brought in from elsewhere. Only ethnic Poles were allowed to remain.

By contrast, not all ethnic Poles were expelled from Vilnius, which still has a substantial Polish minority, as Polish members of this Forum often remind us. That contrast suggests that Poles were more ruthlessly efficient in expelling Germans from Danzig than Lithuanians were in expelling Poles from Vilnius.

So far as I know, the present population of Danzig is entirely of Polish ethnicity, so there is no ethnic diversity there, unlike the situation in Vilnius.

GregSingh
Member
Posts: 3877
Joined: 21 Jun 2012, 02:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#148

Post by GregSingh » 25 Feb 2015, 08:09

I know topic is about Vilnius not Danzig, but here are some numbers:

Freie Stadt Danzig census from 1923 shown 327,827 Germans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig

When Polish administration got there in mid-1945 they counted 123,932 Germans.
Expelling started in July and by January 1946 were 39,497 Germans left.
http://www.zdsk.pl/historia/4-wysiedlen ... -1945-1947

Not sure how many Germans were there in 1939 or 1944, but to me looks like advancing Soviet army did much better job than Polish administration...

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2623
Joined: 25 Feb 2013, 21:23

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#149

Post by gebhk » 25 Feb 2015, 09:57

suggests that Poles were more ruthlessly efficient in expelling Germans from Danzig than Lithuanians were in expelling Poles from Vilnius.
The fact remains that there was little the Polish and Lithuanian 'authorities' could do without the approval of the real Soviet authorities. In Gdansk the Soviets wanted all the Germans gone and in Wilno they didn't want the Poles gone or were indifferent. No one is suggesting that the Poles in Gdansk were unwilling or the Lithuanians in Wilno overly willing, just that the final outcome did not depend on what they wanted. With respect, unless you can demonstrate that the Polish and Lithuanian authorities had complete independence of action in this matter, your argument is logically fatally flawed.

However I agree with Greg that all this is irrelevant to the issue of Polish claims to Wilno before WW2, which is the subject of this thread.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2623
Joined: 25 Feb 2013, 21:23

Re: Polish claims on Wilno/Vilnius

#150

Post by gebhk » 25 Feb 2015, 11:35

De meritum, politicians and diplomats use whatever argument works best for the pursuit of a given aim. So what, that's their job! Complaining about that makes about as much sense as complaining about lawyers using different arguments to pursue different cases. More to the point, I guess, many folk tut about the morality of the legal profession - until they actually need the services of one that is and then, surprisingly enough, want the lawyer to act on their behalf to the best of his or her ability, rather than argue in line with their last case even if that damages your case ;)

Best wishes

Post Reply

Return to “Poland 1919-1945”