Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germany

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michael mills
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Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germany

#1

Post by michael mills » 16 Dec 2010, 07:49

I am currently reading the German-language translation of the book by Marian Wojciechowski, "Stosunki Polsko-Niemieckie 1933-1939", and it makes very interesting reading.

Wojciechowski reveals Pilsudski's pro-German attitude, quite contrary to what is usually claimed in Polish nationalist historiography.

One particularly interesting vignette is found in Wojciechowski's description of the Polish-German negotiations leading up to the Declaration of Non-Aggression of 26 January 1934. On page 80 of the German-language version of the book, Wojciechowski describes the interview on 27 November 1933 between Pilsudski and the German ambassador Moltke, at which the German draft of the Declaration was handed over.

Wojciechowski then says the following:
Pilsudski gab dann seinem Wunsch Ausdruck, die polnisch-deutschen Beziehungen auf eine freundschaftliche Ebene zu stellen und sagte: "Der tausendjaehrige Hass des polnischen Volkes gegen Deutschland verursacht grosse Schwierigkeiten bei der Verwirklichung der freundschaftlichen Beziehungen zwischen beiden Laendern. Deswegen wird sich diese Politik auch nicht auf Gefuehle, sondern auf den Verstand stuetzen".

My translation:

Pilsudski then expressed his wish to place Polish-German relationships on a friendly level, and said: "The thousand-year-old hatred of the Polish people for Germany is causing great difficulties in the realisation of friendly relations between the two countries. For that reason this policy will have to be based not on emotions but on reason".
There we have it, straight from the horse's mouth. Pilsudski is openly admitting that the Polish people had hated Germany for 1000 years, ever since the foundation of the Polish state, and that this hatred was the cause of the difficulties between Poland and Germany, not anything that Germany had done.

Note that, according to Pilsudski, the hatred of the Polish people for Germany cannot have been a result of the partitions of Poland at the end of the 18th Century, nor of the treatment of ethnic Poles in the German Reich between 1871 and 1918, the reasons usually given for Polish anti-German sentiment. Pilsudski says that Polish hatred for Germany predates those events by several centuries.

Pilsudski was not anti-German, but rather anti-Russian. He could see clearly that the difficult relationship between Poland and Germany was not solely the fault of Germany, but was mainly due to sentiments in the Polish population. What Pilsudski's confession means is that it is historically false to see Poland purely as a victim of German aggression and anti-Polonism; rather, the tragic fate of Poland in the period 1939-1944 was as least as much the result of the centuries-old Polish hatred for Germany, which caused Poland to opt for joining an anti-German alliance when the chance was offered in March 1939.

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#2

Post by Njorl » 16 Dec 2010, 13:34

michael mills wrote:Pilsudski says that Polish hatred for Germany predates those events by several centuries.
Yes, and it predates creation of first Polish state and nation as well... I wonder, which tribe was the first to start this hatred in 933 AD. Polans? Vistulans? Masovians?

Similarly, we have heard of thousand year-old Reich... Did it indeed last for 1000 years? Why was the Holy Roman Empire called 'Roman'?

I suggest to take such statements with a grain of salt.

MJU


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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#3

Post by michael mills » 17 Dec 2010, 08:09

I suggest to take such statements with a grain of salt.
Why? Don't you like what the great Polish leader said? Do you prefer to ignore it?

I suggest you think seriously about why Pilsudski made this statement. He would hardly have made it if he did not think it was true.

Pilsudski obviously believed that it was the long-standing Polish hatred for Germany that had prevented good relations between the two countries, and that that had been to Poland's disadvantage. He was proposing to improve Poland's situation by overcoming that hatred and creating a close German-Polish relationship.

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#4

Post by Artur Szulc » 17 Dec 2010, 09:18

Why? Don't you like what the great Polish leader said? Do you prefer to ignore it?

I suggest you think seriously about why Pilsudski made this statement. He would hardly have made it if he did not think it was true.

Pilsudski obviously believed that it was the long-standing Polish hatred for Germany that had prevented good relations between the two countries, and that that had been to Poland's disadvantage. He was proposing to improve Poland's situation by overcoming that hatred and creating a close German-Polish relationship.
There is a saying:

Don't argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you...

...with experience.

Come on Mills, even though I certainly not often agree with you, but you are no idiot, so please use some of your brain capacity and ask yourself why Pilsudski, trying to improve Polish-German relations said something symbolical like that...

1000-years of hatred.... :roll:
sure.

There is no reason to belive that either people - Germans and Poles - in general terms did not "hate" each other.
For Poles the Germans (well, no Germany existed before 1871, but still) where oppressors and for Germans the Poles was inferior racially, socially, culturally.. those ideas was well developed during the 18th and 19th century by "German" thinkers and adopted by the Nazis.

But on the other hand, mixed marriages between Germans and Poles where perhaps not common but they did occur.
Just look at my surname, Szulc

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#5

Post by Njorl » 17 Dec 2010, 14:08

michael mills wrote:
I suggest to take such statements with a grain of salt.
Why? Don't you like what the great Polish leader said? Do you prefer to ignore it?

I suggest you think seriously about why Pilsudski made this statement. He would hardly have made it if he did not think it was true.
Why? Because this "tausendjaehrige Hass" has symbolic meaning only. That's why I prefer to ignore its literal meaning. You just come into conclusion, that in 1934 it already lasted for round 1000 years - not less (well, maybe even more - why not?) - just because Piłsudski said so during diplomatic meeting.

Please note that I do not argue, that Poles are reported to not have liked Germans since some point in time. I'm not after why he said so but I'm after what he said and how you interpret it. Diplomatic affairs require some nice round words being spoken. 1000 year old hatred... Come on! As if I heard that prices will drop by 100% or that no enemy aircraft will disturb III Reichs airspace! (both of these statements were uttered in real).

So let me repeat my plea, Mr Mills: explain me please, what "Poles" started to hate "Germans". When had this hate started? How many are these 'several centuries' of yours?

MJU

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#6

Post by Musashi » 17 Dec 2010, 15:47

michael mills wrote: Why? Don't you like what the great Polish leader said? Do you prefer to ignore it?
Actually our great leader considered himself a "Lithuanian" and despised ethnic Poles, saying "Poland is like a bagel - the outside part is the tastiest". He meant the people living in the centre of the country were less worthy. He was a Protestant, as I remember you claiming Poland was an Ultracatholic country where just Catholics could have a career. So how was it possible a Protestant became the most important person in the country?
Of course it's true his policy was more German-friendly, than Soviet-friendly as him as well as his family suffered from the Russians.

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#7

Post by michael mills » 18 Dec 2010, 04:00

He was a Protestant, as I remember you claiming Poland was an Ultracatholic country where just Catholics could have a career. So how was it possible a Protestant became the most important person in the country?
Pilsudski was born a Catholic, but at one point he converted to Calvinism in order to marry. Later he returned to the Catholic Church.

But he had no personal religious faith. For him religion was just a matter of politics, and he made a formal return to Catholicism purely because, in an ultra-Catholic country like Poland, that would help him in his political career.

By the way, I visited Poland in June this year, and attended the ceremony of unveiling the Black Madonna at the Jasna Gora Monastery. It was truly like something out of the Middle Ages; the people there, most of them young, were acting like superstitious peasants. So yes, Poland is still an ultra-Catholic country.

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#8

Post by michael mills » 18 Dec 2010, 04:14

So let me repeat my plea, Mr Mills: explain me please, what "Poles" started to hate "Germans". When had this hate started? How many are these 'several centuries' of yours?
The issue is not the precise number of years that the hatred of the Polish people for Germany existed.

The crucial issue is that a hatred for Germany was deeply rooted in the Polish people, had existed for a very long time, and was the main cause of the conflict between Poland and Germany.

Pilsudski was trying to create better relations between Germany and Poland, so that both countries could join forces against Russia, which Pilsudski saw as the true enemy of Poland. However, his task was made more difficult by the traditional hatred of the Polish people for Germany, something that needed to be overcome in order to achieve his goal. That is why he admitted the existence of that hatred to Moltke, the German Ambassador.

The bottom line is that Poland has not been simply an innocent victim of German malevolence; rather, the sufferings of the Poles were a result of their traditional hatred for Germany, which prevented the attainment of Pilsudski's (and Hitler's) goal of a Polish-German alliance, and created a conflict that led to war.

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#9

Post by ToKu » 18 Dec 2010, 10:30

Mr Mills last of Your "crucial issues" or conclusions, that: "and was the main cause of the conflict between Poland and Germany" doesn't come out of the Pilsudski word's You quoted.

You know, deriving false conclusion (out of a simple sentence, not a complicated essay) is a tool of not very etchical journalist and not proffesional historian.

The bottom line is, it is impossible to say what would would have happend in Poland in the absence of alleged 1000 years hatred disscussed in this topic.
Last edited by ToKu on 18 Dec 2010, 13:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#10

Post by Njorl » 18 Dec 2010, 10:43

michael mills wrote:The issue is not the precise number of years that the hatred of the Polish people for Germany existed.
No? So what is the point of focus of your initial post of this thread, Mr Mills?

At first you emphasize "The thousand-year-old hatred of the Polish people for Germany" in the translated excerpt.
Later we read:
michael mills wrote:Pilsudski is openly admitting that the Polish people had hated Germany for 1000 years, ever since the foundation of the Polish state, and that this hatred was the cause of the difficulties between Poland and Germany, not anything that Germany had done.
And then:
michael mills wrote:Note that, according to Pilsudski, the hatred of the Polish people for Germany cannot have been a result of the partitions of Poland at the end of the 18th Century, nor of the treatment of ethnic Poles in the German Reich between 1871 and 1918, the reasons usually given for Polish anti-German sentiment. Pilsudski says that Polish hatred for Germany predates those events by several centuries.
So we have about a half of post where you elaborate on timeframe of this hatred mentioned by Piłsudski and you still state, that it is not the issue you're after? If it is not, why did you mention it at all?

Once again - when did this hatred started, how many centuries before Piłsudski? Who were these "Poles" and who were the "Germans" that were hated by them?

By the way, how does "superstitious peasant" act?

MJU

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#11

Post by michael mills » 19 Dec 2010, 06:19

I think certain members of this forum need to face up to historical truth, rather than ducking and weaving and taking refuge in obfuscation.

The historical truth is that the conflict between Poland and Germany was caused by the long-lasting hatred of the Polish people for Germany, and that truth was confirmed by Pilsudski.

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#12

Post by Mischa » 19 Dec 2010, 10:17

Hello,

ENG: What does that mean again. "Old Grandpa" will probably not remember how many German colonists settled in the real Poland, where widespread agricultural culture? How can he speak of a 1000 year old hatred, if it were no disputes in the West. It's pure nonsense. The cities in eastern Poland were still almost all German (Magdeburg) City to maintain, and in the former East Prussia are still to be beautiful castles (Marienburg Malbork = for example), Cracow belonged to the Hanseatic Gdansk and Elblag can be said only good things. And as my time Kollege once said, the farther east because the bread is getting darker and the songs are sad.

GER: Was soll das wieder heißen. "Der Alte Opa" wird sich wohl nicht mehr erinnern können, wie viele deutsche Kolonisten das richtige Polen besiedelten und dort Agrarkultur verbreiteten? Wie kann er von einem 1000jährigen Haß sprechen, wenn es im Westen keine Streitigkeiten gab. Es ist doch purer Schwachsinn.Die Städte in Ostpolen bekamen doch fast alle deutsche (Magdeburger) Stadtrechte erhalten, und im ehemaligen Ostpreussen stehen bis heute schöne Burgen (Marienburg = Malbork zum Beispiel), Krakau gehörte der Hanse um von Danzig und Elbing kann nur Gutes behauptet werden. Und wie mein Kollege einst mal sagte, je weiter Richtung Osten da wird das Brot immer dunkler und die Lieder immer trauriger.

Regards
Mischa :milwink:

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#13

Post by ToKu » 19 Dec 2010, 10:30

Dear Michael!

Your thesis that: "the conflict between Poland and Germany was caused by the long-lasting hatred of the Polish people for Germany" or as You put it earlier: "[the hatred] and was the main cause of the conflict between Poland and Germany" may be true or not I don't judge it (yet?)

The problem is that this tehsis is not coming out of Pilsudski's words, contrary to what You try impute.

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#14

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 19 Dec 2010, 10:40

Marienburg is Westpreußen, not Ostpreußen...

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: Pilsudski confesses: 1000-year hatred of Poles for Germa

#15

Post by Artur Szulc » 19 Dec 2010, 11:02

I think certain members of this forum need to face up to historical truth, rather than ducking and weaving and taking refuge in obfuscation.

The historical truth is that the conflict between Poland and Germany was caused by the long-lasting hatred of the Polish people for Germany, and that truth was confirmed by Pilsudski.
And I belive that you should stop writing pro-German chauvinist nonsense.

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