If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enemy

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8759
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#106

Post by wm » 28 Sep 2012, 19:16

Peter K wrote:During the September Campaign of 1939 he was the commander of 6th Horse Rifle Regiment within Kresowa Cavalry Brigade. He surrendered on 11.09.1939 at 16:30 after his unit ran out of ammo, during the fighting in the forest near Osuchow (Kampf im Wald von Osuchow), in which on the German side 19. Inf.Div. was involved (mainly 73. and 59. infantry regiments of this division).
We might add that his performance during those 11 days is judged poor.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8759
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#107

Post by wm » 28 Sep 2012, 19:51

michael mills wrote:I also wrote that he must have been acceptable to the NKVD investigators. That must be true, since otherwise he would not have been allowed to join the Polish Communist forces, which were effectively under the control of Soviet officers of Polish ethnicity. That his vetting by Communist authorities occurred after the end of the war, after his release from German captivity, rather than during the war does not really change matters.
Vetting was for small fries, a big fish was treated differently because was useful to the Soviets.
michael mills wrote:The fact that Mossor was accepted into the post-war Polish Communist armed forces indicates that he must have been a supporter of the Polish Communist Government, and cannot have been suspected of any collaboration with Germany while in German captivity, or of any pro-German attitude before the war.
I din't matter. In the few years after the war Stalin needed a lot of convincing extras for the Potemkin village called Poland. Collaboration wasn't a problem. In fact the Potemkin village called the DDR was manned in part by "collaborators".

But it is true that Mossor became a supporter in the last days of the war.


Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#108

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 02 Oct 2012, 20:13

A discussion with Piotr Zychowicz, as well as another historian, Sławomir Cenckiewicz:



I have currently no time to translate all of this to English, though.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Lokanski
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: 26 Aug 2011, 03:56

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#109

Post by Lokanski » 02 Oct 2012, 22:28

Shouldn't this be in the "What if" sub-forum?

Anyway, Germany never considered Poland as an ally, and had immense racists background regarding Poles which unable any cooperation on equal ground.

For Poland "alliance" with Germany would be the worst possible option. Germany had claims against Polish majority inhabited territories that had vital industrial and economical value regarding the question of Polish independence. In the past German treatment of Poles was the most oppressive of all partitioning powers with vast Germanization settlement programs that neither Russia nor AH envisioned regarding Polish territories. So there was little to expect from German government openly declaring itself copying the worse attributes of nationalistic thinking.

From strategic point of view, Poland would have to choose giving away its independence towards a new upstart on the international scene, and siding against powers like France, UK and Soviet Union-all of which had at their disposal armies, manpower and economic assets that dwarfed anything Axis had in its possession. No sane politician would think of that as good choice.
SU on the other hand would remain on Stalin Line, with mass fortifications enabling it to defend itself better. Germany would be deprived of economical assistance from SU, and Polish involvement in the Axis would turn the Ukrainians against Axis and towards Soviets. Also from the start SU could expect accelerated assistance from the Free World.
It is thus likely that Poland would fight a losing war for a genocidal racist regime, that already envisioned annexing its territory. When Allies win, Poland would be stripped of its territory, probably reduced to the size of Congress Poland, its cities reduced to rubble during fight with Soviet Army over places like Warsaw or Krakow(which in our world was spared) its intellectual elites subjected to trials and executions, one can't even discounted the possibility that it would be absorbed as an Soviet Republic. Thus a fate worse than the one in 1945.

I seriously doubt that Nazis could have won, but what if they did? In hindsight the world would be a terrible place, with all mainland Europe deprived of liberty and free thought, its Jewish population exterminated, and dominating ideology based on racism and genocide as tool of power. Poland itself losing its elites in fights in SU for German cause, its developed and Polish majority inhabited western territories annexed and German, millions of its citizens murdered as untermenschen, millions deported, while others suffer steady Germanization at the hands of an oppressive racist Nazi German regime.And Polish government not as part of the Allies, but as part of the camp which engaged in genocidal Holocaust, an atrocity on scale and intent never before seen in the world. Again a fate worse than the one in 1945. Both for Poland and the world.


The alliance with Soviets would be tempting but unfortunately by 1939 it was too late, with mass murder of Poles in SU its doubtful Polish government was willing to trust the Soviets.
The best chance was an alliance with Czechs but it would require some earlier changes to history, maybe giving Poles Gdansk in 1919 so that they would be more focused on Germany as an opponent.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#110

Post by michael mills » 03 Oct 2012, 01:24

I seriously doubt that Nazis could have won, but what if they did? In hindsight the world would be a terrible place, with all mainland Europe deprived of liberty and free thought, its Jewish population exterminated, and dominating ideology based on racism and genocide as tool of power. Poland itself losing its elites in fights in SU for German cause, its developed and Polish majority inhabited western territories annexed and German, millions of its citizens murdered as untermenschen, millions deported, while others suffer steady Germanization at the hands of an oppressive racist Nazi German regime.And Polish government not as part of the Allies, but as part of the camp which engaged in genocidal Holocaust, an atrocity on scale and intent never before seen in the world. Again a fate worse than the one in 1945. Both for Poland and the world.
The logical error in the above scenario, which reflects a Polish chauvinist point of view, is that it assumes that the German actions toward Poland that actually occurred between 1939 and 1944 were inevitable, and not contingent on the choice made by the Polish Government in March 1939 to join Britain and France in an anti-German alliance.

There is no reason whatever to believe that if Poland had become Germany's ally in 1939 it would have suffered the same fate it actually did suffer during the war, being devastated and ending up as a Soviet satellite. Germany would have had no reason whatever to inflict devastation on Poland if that country had been its ally; to the contrary, the Polish armed forces and a fully operational and undamaged Polish economy would have been of inestimable benefit to Germany in its confrontation with the Soviet Union.

If the Polish Government had chosen in 1939 to become Germany's ally rather than its enemy, this would have been the position of Poland:
  • It would have had continued customs-free access to the port of a Danzig reunited with Germany, in the same way that Lithuania continued to have access to the port of Memel after the reunification of that city with Germany;

    It would have had continued access to its sovereign port in Gdynia by means of crossings over and under the one-kilometre-wide extraterritorial strip linking East Prussia to the rest of Germany;

    It would have retained all other former German territory, ie East Upper Silesia, Poznan, most of West Prussia, and it would have gained German recognition and guarantee of the existing Polish western border, something that it tried in vain to obtain since 1919, and had not even been able to obtain from Britain and France.
On the downside, it might well have been drawn into a war against the Soviet Union mounted by Germany. However, given that Germany would not simultaneously have been engaged in war in the West, a clash with the Soviet Union might well have succeeded.

If Poland had become Germany's ally in 1939, Britain and France would have had no casus belli for making war on Germany. If Germany and Poland had subsequently attacked the Soviet Union, it is unlikely that Britain and France would have come to the aid of the latter, given the strong anti-Communist sentiment in the ruling classes of those two countries.

The most ridiculous element in the passage quoted above is the suggestion that the extermination of the Jewish population represented a disbenefit to Poland. It is an irrefutable historical fact that the Polish Government, and most probably the greater part of the Polish population, saw the presence of several million Jews in Poland as a severe socio-economic and political problem, and desired a solution of that problem through the removal of those millions.

Indeed, on 20 September 1938, the Polish Ambassador in Berlin, Jozef Lipski, declared passionately to Hitler that if the latter could solve the Jewish problem in Poland, the Polish people would erect a memorial to him in the most beautiful part of Warsaw to express their gratitude. There can be little doubt that Lipski was expressing a view acceptable to the Polish Government.

In the case of Germany and Poland becoming allies and joining to overthrow Soviet power, it is most likely that they would have worked together to remove the Jewish population from Poland. Such removal would undoubtedly not have been by physical extermination, but by expulsion to some other place, the means initially pursued in historical reality by the German Government. A successful war against the Soviet Union would have made it possible to solve the Jewish problem in Poland by transporting the Jews to the extreme east of the conquered Soviet territory, and perhaps compelling a rump Russia to accept the Jews and resettle them in Central Asia or some other green and pleasant land.

Another ridiculous element is the assertion that millions of Polish citizens would have been murdered as Untermenschen in the case of Poland's becoming an ally of Germany. In that case, Germany would have had no reason whatever to kill Poles. Did Germany kill large numbers of Italians when Italy was an ally of Germany? No, it did not. The only time Germany killed Italians was when Italy had changed sides and joined Germany's enemies, and elements within the Italian population had begun an anti-German insurgency.

This whole issue of the choices open to the Polish Government in 1939, whether to become an ally of Germany or to join an anti-German alliance, needs to be analysed in an impartial manner, based on hisotrical fact and free of the strictures of Polish chauvinist ideology.

Lokanski
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: 26 Aug 2011, 03:56

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#111

Post by Lokanski » 03 Oct 2012, 03:32

michael mills wrote:The logical error in the above scenario, which reflects a Polish chauvinist point of view, is that it assumes that the German actions toward Poland that actually occurred between 1939 and 1944 were inevitable, and not contingent on the choice made by the Polish Government in March 1939 to join Britain and France in an anti-German alliance.
All German actions were their own, and not influenced by Poland at all. Certainly the genocide of Poles was the decision of German leadership and not the Polish one.


There is no reason whatever to believe that if Poland had become Germany's ally in 1939 it would have suffered the same fate it actually did suffer during the war, being devastated and ending up as a Soviet satellite.
I think others made it clear that indeed this is true-the fate could have been much, much worse.
Germany would have had no reason whatever to inflict devastation on Poland if that country had been its ally;
Except Poland wouldn't be it ally but puppet.

t

If the Polish Government had chosen in 1939 to become Germany's ally rather than its enemy, this would have been the position of Poland:
  • It would have had continued customs-free access to the port of a Danzig reunited with Germany, in the same way that Lithuania continued to have access to the port of Memel after the reunification of that city with Germany;
In other words dependent economically on Germany.
It would have had continued access to its sovereign port in Gdynia by means of crossings over and under the one-kilometre-wide extraterritorial strip linking East Prussia to the rest of Germany;
In other words its access to sea could be blocked at any time, and its territory would lose sovereignty to Germany.
It would have retained all other former German territory, ie East Upper Silesia, Poznan, most of West Prussia, and it would have gained German recognition and guarantee of the existing Polish western border
You contradicted yourself here, since above you state that Poland would have its territory taken away by Germany.
On the downside, it might well have been drawn into a war against the Soviet Union mounted by Germany. However, given that Germany would not simultaneously have been engaged in war in the West, a clash with the Soviet Union might well have succeeded.
Based on what? Inexperienced German army, without the resources of Netherlands, France, with Soviets already on fortified Stalin line, with Germany without 3 years of vast Soviet resources pumped for war? Hardly. A Soviet victory is even more likely than in our world. With far worse consequences for Poland.
If Poland had become Germany's ally in 1939, Britain and France would have had no casus belli for making war on Germany.
Again contradiction-you time and time again argued that Britain would not accept Germany's position.
If Germany and Poland had subsequently attacked the Soviet Union, it is unlikely that Britain and France would have come to the aid of the latter, given the strong anti-Communist sentiment in the ruling classes of those two countries.
Both France and UK practised real-politics not ideological fantasies, one rather important trait that distinguishes them from Nazis and their fans.
The most ridiculous element in the passage quoted above is the suggestion that the extermination of the Jewish population represented a disbenefit to Poland.
Reported. And yes extermination of Polish intellectual elites, doctors, and lawyers was a disbenefit to Poland.
It is an irrefutable historical fact that the Polish Government, and most probably the greater part of the Polish population, saw the presence of several million Jews in Poland as a severe socio-economic and political problem, and desired a solution of that problem through the removal of those millions.
Polish government never entertained the idea of exterminating its Jewish population, but preferred their emigration to Palestine. Pretty weak manipulation on your part.

In the case of Germany and Poland becoming allies and joining to overthrow Soviet power, it is most likely that they would have worked together to remove the Jewish population from Poland.
Good then that Poland didn't ally with Germany and its racist genocidal intentions.
Such removal would undoubtedly not have been by physical extermination,
Says who? What makes it undoubted ? Seems to me Nazis were always prone to murdering people, so why not here?
but by expulsion to some other place, the means initially pursued in historical reality by the German Government.
Nice try. Historically reality is that Nazi German government at the first possible step engaged in violence and murder against Jews.
A successful war against the Soviet Union would have made it possible to solve the Jewish problem in Poland by transporting the Jews to the extreme east of the conquered Soviet territory, and perhaps compelling a rump Russia to accept the Jews and resettle them in Central Asia or some other green and pleasant land.
Central Asia is not a green and pleasant land, and its rather certain that mass ethnic cleansing on such scale would result in massive death toll. Again-you have given a very good reason why Poland made a good choice by not allying with Nazis and engaging in racist fantasies of theirs.
Another ridiculous element is the assertion that millions of Polish citizens would have been murdered as Untermenschen in the case of Poland's becoming an ally of Germany. In that case, Germany would have had no reason whatever to kill Poles.
Germany had no reason to kill Jewish children in gas chambers and yet it did, did it not?
Nazis were motivated by racist ideology shaped by German nationalism and Poles were always seen as inferior in German nationalist view, and it is rather certain that Poles would be next on the list.
Did Germany kill large numbers of Italians when Italy was an ally of Germany? No, it did not.
Were Italians target of German lebensraum and believed by German nationalists to be animals like Poles were, long before Hitler? No they weren't.

The bottom line is that Poland even by your scenario made a good choice.
It didn't ally with racist genocidal regime, it had chosen a side that ultimately led to diverse, multicultural Europe of democracies, not a backwards Europe dominated by Nazi racism, that would resemble something akin to a state worse than North Korea. Of course a far more likely scenario is Poland as Soviet republic or in territories of Congress Poland with most of its intellectuals shot or in Siberia.

Both fates far more worse than the one that happened in our 1945.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8759
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#112

Post by wm » 03 Oct 2012, 08:51

michael mills wrote:The most ridiculous element in the passage quoted above is the suggestion that the extermination of the Jewish population represented a disbenefit to Poland. It is an irrefutable historical fact that the Polish Government, and most probably the greater part of the Polish population, saw the presence of several million Jews in Poland as a severe socio-economic and political problem, and desired a solution of that problem through the removal of those millions.
It is a fact that a few politicians entertained the mistaken economic idea of of the Jewish and peasant emigration. Nothing really unusual here - as at that time politicians made a lot of mistakes all around the world.
But it was a political solution to a real problem - really nothing wrong with this, except it made no economic sense - the relatively sparsely populated Poland didn't need further depopulation.
A economically and militarily strong Poland needed every Jew and peasant that were there.
michael mills wrote:Indeed, on 20 September 1938, the Polish Ambassador in Berlin, Jozef Lipski, declared passionately to Hitler that if the latter could solve the Jewish problem in Poland, the Polish people would erect a memorial to him in the most beautiful part of Warsaw to express their gratitude. There can be little doubt that Lipski was expressing a view acceptable to the Polish Government.
Well, it is really hard to say what's wrong with this statement.
There is no doubt that if the Jewish problem had been solved according to the Polish political norms and rules Hitler's memorials would have been built not only in Polish cities but in the Jewish too.

Of course the problem didn't need solving because it was the result of the Polish severe economic crisis. The roots of the crisis needed to be fought and it was done despite the politico claptrap.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8759
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#113

Post by wm » 03 Oct 2012, 09:40

michael mills wrote:This whole issue of the choices open to the Polish Government in 1939, whether to become an ally of Germany or to join an anti-German alliance, needs to be analysed in an impartial manner, based on hisotrical fact and free of the strictures of Polish chauvinist ideology.
The Polish chauvinist ideology says you have no right to save themselves by killing innocent people.
Anyway it is a curious idea that Poland needed a military alliance with the Reich or the USSR.
In the thirties Poland, like Switzerland , mounted a credible and disastrous for an aggressor (as the history of the WWII shows) weak-to-strong deterrence.
The problem was that Hitler was behaving illogically and didn't act in Germany's best interests, and you can't defend himself against stupidity.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#114

Post by michael mills » 03 Oct 2012, 14:11

The historical fact is that everything suffered by the Polish people during the Second World War was the result of the disastrous decision of the Polish Government to adopt a postion of hostility toward Germany, in the vain hope that in alliance with Britain and France it would be able to defeat Germany and achieve the Piast dream of expanding to the Oder and beyond.

The Czechs surrendered to Germany, and as a result did not suffer anywhere near as much as the Polish people. The Finns, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians and Croatians allied themselves with Germany, and did not suffer anything at German hands. Neither did the Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians.

Orwell1984
Member
Posts: 578
Joined: 18 Jun 2011, 19:42

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#115

Post by Orwell1984 » 03 Oct 2012, 14:38

michael mills wrote:The historical fact is that everything suffered by the Polish people during the Second World War was the result of the disastrous decision of the Polish Government to adopt a postion of hostility toward Germany, in the vain hope that in alliance with Britain and France it would be able to defeat Germany and achieve the Piast dream of expanding to the Oder and beyond.

The Czechs surrendered to Germany, and as a result did not suffer anywhere near as much as the Polish people. The Finns, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians and Croatians allied themselves with Germany, and did not suffer anything at German hands. Neither did the Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians.
Really? The old "she made me hit her so it's her fault" defence?
:roll:
So everyone who didn't do what Germany wanted deserved what they got?

Lokanski
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: 26 Aug 2011, 03:56

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#116

Post by Lokanski » 03 Oct 2012, 15:32

michael mills wrote:The historical fact is
Really ? Says who? What author, what historian? Or is this only your personal opinion, and thus hardly a "historical fact"
that everything suffered by the Polish people during the Second World War was the result of the disastrous decision of the Polish Government
The decision to exterminate Polish nation was made by German leadership on its own. There is no evidence that Polish government had any influence on this decision by German state.
to adopt a postion of hostility toward Germany
Poland didn't have a position of hostility to Germany, it had in fact a non-aggression pact with Germany. It was also Germany which issued territorial demands towards Polish territory, not Poland against Germany.
in the vain hope that in alliance with Britain and France it would be able to defeat Germany
Which, as historical facts go, did happen.
and achieve the Piast dream of expanding to the Oder and beyond.
Polish Governments demands in September 1939 after war broke out were to restore Gdansk, rest of Gdansk Pomerania, Upper Silesia and parts of East Prussia, some minor territorial changes in Lubusz area. Nowhere did the Polish government demand Oder border in 1939.
The Czechs surrendered to Germany, and as a result did not suffer anywhere near as much as the Polish people.
Jewish population surrendered completely to Germany without almost any resistance and as result they were exterminated in up to 90% using such means as gas chambers. Ain't that right mr. Mills?
The Finns, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians and Croatians allied themselves with Germany, and did not suffer anything at German hands
But they did, only not on the scale Poles and Jews did. Also most of them were not regarded as low on racial scale as Poles and Jews, nor were they historically regarded as inferior enemies of Germandom or their land as Lebensraum.
Neither did the Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians.
They weren't considered untermenschen. However it is interesting to bring them up, even their subordination wouldn't save them from the Nazi plans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
While the Baltic nations like Estonians would be spared from repressions and physical liquidation that Jews or Poles were experiencing, in the long term the Nazi planners did not foresee their existence as independent entitites and they would be deported as well, with eventual denationalisation; initial designs were for Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia to be Germanized within 25 years, however Heinrich Himmler revised them to 20 years.[11]
Percentages of ethnic groups targeted for elimination by Nazi Germany from future settlement areas(...)
Lithuanians 85%
Latvians 50%
Estonians 50%
It is worth mentioning that Baltic area was considered part of Lebensraum just as Poland, thus Poles would probably suffer similar fate if not worse ,as traditionally there was greater racism against Poles than Balts in German nationalist circles.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8759
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#117

Post by wm » 03 Oct 2012, 22:09

michael mills wrote:The historical fact is that everything suffered by the Polish people during the Second World War was the result of the disastrous decision of the Polish Government to adopt a postion of hostility toward Germany, in the vain hope that in alliance with Britain and France it would be able to defeat Germany and achieve the Piast dream of expanding to the Oder and beyond.
What is with this Piasts' schizophrenic dream. The territories to the Oder and beyond were theirs all the time, why were they dreaming about conquering them. :)
And there is no proof that the Polish Government planned it this way. I think there is no proof that they had any political plan or war aims. Rydz-Śmigły's political incompetence took care of that.

It is true that the suffering was the result of the decision of the Polish Government to adopt a postion of hostility toward Germany but we can hardly blame that Government. They acted according to what was known then, surely they didn't know the future. The acquired experience and the European history was useless, the WWII was as nothing before.
The other governments simply got lucky, the WWII was both militarily and politically sufficiently random affair to render any planning futile for small players.

The Polish strategy was sound, they had the capability to wound the beast so the big boys could finish it easily. The execution was abysmal unfortunately.
But in war unintended consequences, bad outcomes, disasters and military mistakes are to be expected. We can't avoid them by simply switching to some other strategy.

And there is the fact that the Poles would not accepted alliance with Germany against the USSR, the opposition was talking about a anti-German coup d'etat already in 1938, the country would descend into a civil war.
Such an alliance was against everything people then believed or at least they were taught in schools. This would destroy Poland more thoroughly than the German occupation. Poland wasn't a mercenary camp - to be order to fight with the USSR in the morning and with Germany in the evening.

Lokanski
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: 26 Aug 2011, 03:56

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#118

Post by Lokanski » 03 Oct 2012, 22:32

wm wrote: The Polish strategy was sound
Quite true, Germany in 1939 would face destruction if it would attack Poland. A sane and reasonable leadership would realise that and avoid attacking Poland, knowing that ultimately the alliances Poland had would result in destruction of Germany and its occupation. Unfortunately the German people didn't elect a sane and reasonable leadership but a racist genocidal one, which decided to press on with the war against a block far larger and stronger than any alliance Germany could possibly construct.
The end result is known-unconditional surrender of Germany and its occupation.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15676
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#119

Post by ljadw » 03 Oct 2012, 22:42

I see some strange "arguments" as :Germany had demands on Poland,Poland said :no,thus (dixit M.Mills):Poland was hostile to Germany .Thus:Iraq had demands on Kuwait,Kuwait said no,thus Kuwait was hostile to Iraq .Even Sadam did not try this one .
In 1914,Germany had certain demands on Belgium,which said no,proving that it was hostile to Germany . :roll:

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#120

Post by michael mills » 04 Oct 2012, 03:52

The decision to exterminate Polish nation was made by German leadership on its own.
There was never any such decision.
Nowhere did the Polish government demand Oder border in 1939.
Which Polish Government is being talked about here?

The government created by Pilsudski never demanded the Oder border, and his successors did not do so officially either. However, elements within the opposition to Sanacja did demand westward expansion; some members of that opposition, for example Sikorski, even favoured an alliance with the Soviet Union against Germany for that purpose.

Once the remnants of the Sanacja government had fled to Romania and it had been replaced by the Government-in-Exile in France, Sikorski as head of that government proclaimed the annexation of all German territory east of the Oder-Neisse Line as an official Polish war aim.

What had happened was that an aim of the opposition to Sanacja became an aim of the Polish Government once the opposition had come to power. In the period between March and September 1939, the opposition in Poland had been agitating for war, putting pressure on the Sanacja Government to adopt an intransigent attitude, and had publicly proclaimed that the annexation of German territory should be an aim of the war that it was pushing for.

Now I would like to address the far more sensible comments by WM, who wrote:
And there is no proof that the Polish Government planned it this way. I think there is no proof that they had any political plan or war aims. Rydz-Śmigły's political incompetence took care of that.

It is true that the suffering was the result of the decision of the Polish Government to adopt a postion of hostility toward Germany.................

..................................................................................................

And there is the fact that the Poles would not [have] accepted alliance with Germany against the USSR, the opposition was talking about a anti-German coup d'etat already in 1938, the country would descend into a civil war.
I actually do not have any essential disagreement with the above comments by WM.

The Sanacja regime was very weak, and was unable to resist the pressure comong from the internal anti-German opposition. It did not have the prestige and authority that Pildsudski had had.

Beck in particular had no desire to confront Germany, as is shown by his reaction to the written messages of congratulation he received from the opposition for his sabre-rattling anti-German speech on 5 May 1939; according to eyewitness accounts, he angrily threw the messages into the wastepaper-basket. The most probable reason for his angry reaction is that he knew that he had been pushed into taking an anti-German position that he did not want to take, and which he knew would end disastrously for Poland.

Furthermore, in the contest between Beck and Rydz-Smigly for the succession to Pilsudski, the latter had sought the support of Endecja by drawing closer to its anti-German and anti-Jewish political stance, which weakened Sanacja and made it difficult for it to resist the pressure coming from Endecja and other anti-German elements to adopt a confrontationist attitude toward Germany.

The fact that the opposition to Sanacja was planning a coup d'etat in 1938 supports the point that I have been making all along, namely that it was the pressure from the opposition that impelled the Polish Government into the disastrous course of confronting Germany, a course that Beck in particular did not want to follow given the minimalist nature of the package deal offered by Germany to Poland.

No-one can know for sure whether civil war would have broken out in Poland if at some point between October 1938 and March 1939 the Polish Government had accepted the package deal offered by Germany. It is quite possible that it would have; after the Pilsudski coup in May 1926 elements of Endecja in Western Poland were preparing an uprising, but were unable to get enough support in the army due to Pilsudski's prestige. Pilsudski's successors did not have anywhere near his prestige, so it is possible that elements within the Polish army, eg former officers of the Haller Army, might have joined a coup against the Sanacja Government.

However, a coup in Poland, or even a full-blown civil war, would not have given Britain and France an adequate casus belli against Germany, one that would have the material support of the United States. If Germany had intervened in Poland on the side of the legitimate government against anti-German rebels, it would have been difficult for Britain and France to declare war on Germany in response, since Germany would not have offended against international law.

It is also possible that in the above situation of a civil war between the Sanacja Government and anti-German rebels, the Soviet Union would have intervened on the side of the rebels, with Poland becoming a battle ground between Germany and the Soviet Union, as WM has suggested (Hitler = Charles XII, Stalin = Peter I). That would have been a bad thing for the people of Poland, but the Soviet Union would have been on its own, given that it was assisting rebels, and it would have been difficult for countries opposed to Germany (Britain, France, United states) to justify giving the Soviet Union the support they did give in historical reality. Germany would have appeared to have right on its side, given that it was supporting a legitimate government, and would not have appeared in the role of an aggressor that it did appear in in historical reality, and which allowed the Allies to gain world support.

Post Reply

Return to “Poland 1919-1945”