If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enemy

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RG
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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#136

Post by RG » 06 Oct 2012, 23:26

michael mills wrote:
Indeed, he was annoyed to be pushed to take into anti-german position, however MM interpretation is wrong. The triggering factor was not anti-german oposition but aggresive actions of Germany. This speech of 5th May was end of Polish policy of balance between Germany and SU. German agression made it impossible to keep it any longer and this was a reason of Beck's irritation.
What German aggression?

As of May 1939 there had been no German aggression against Poland whatever.

In fact, Poland had been the first to threaten war against Germany over Danzig, on 24 March, after it had received assurances of British support.
Threats against Poland: 24 October 1938 (Von Ribbentrop to Lipski) 6 January 1939 (Ribbentrop to Beck) and 21 March 1939 (Official memorandum of Hitler)

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#137

Post by waldzee » 07 Oct 2012, 00:24

Lokanski wrote:
the Baltic States were overrun by a horde of Slavic proletarians, mainly Russians and Ukrainians with a low level of culture.
since the ethnic Latvians would have been living alongside cultured Germans rather than alcoholic Slavic proletarians.
Reported for racist attacks.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr Mills 'Fantasy Third Reich' occasionally gets away from him... :P
as pointed out earlier , Michael, by 1940 Meth was becoming the " NAZI DRUG OF CHOICE' :lol:


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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#138

Post by wm » 07 Oct 2012, 02:13

michael mills wrote:In fact, Poland had been the first to threaten war against Germany over Danzig, on 24 March, after it had received assurances of British support.
In defense of Polish property, so it was a warning, not a threat...
michael mills wrote:the Baltic peoples in historical fact was that under post-war Soviet rule they were swamped by huge numbers of Slavs with a low level of culture, who still constitute a major social and political problem despite the fact that a considerable number have gone back to Russia or Ukraine.
Let's not confuse culture with stupidity :) The heavy hardware they were creating there didn't care if they had manicured hands or not.
They have become lumpenproletariat because the local heavy industry collapsed, they weren't like that before.
michael mills wrote:It shows that many of them, perhaps most, were highly idealistic and saw themselves as contributing to the great task of creating the "German East".
I'm quite sure that the Nazi system produced idealistic young men and women, maybe even in large numbers. Similar idealistic education systems existed in the USSR and Poland and they were successful.
But as the German policy forces, administration and industry there were populated by third rate bureaucrats (from small towns and villages to boot) who quickly succumbed to the charms of power, money and cheap booze, the young idealists had little chance to survive in their idealistic state for long I suppose...
And the idealistically driven large projects, for example Komsomol's in the USSR invariably ended up in failure - so maybe it was not a good idea after all.
michael mills wrote:Of course, it may be that women in general are more idealistic than men, and less inclined to hit the booze and become corrupt, and in fact that is what the book suggests. In any case, I encourage you to read it; I found it absolutely fascinating.
I will :)

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#139

Post by wm » 07 Oct 2012, 02:31

michael mills wrote:I doubt that by 1945 any sensible person believed in the "humanistic values" of Communism. Two decades of the actual practice of Communism in the Soviet Union and in the territories occupied by it just before the outbreak of war had shown any such "human istic values" to be a total sham.
The values were there all the time, for example in the Soviet Constitution, it was easy to believe that the problem was only in the faulty implementation...
As to the actual practice of Communism - I think (after reading a few hundred accounts of life under occupation :) ) that people mostly didn't know, didn't believe or didn't care. Although the information was available before the war and Germans were doing everything to change people's minds - it was all in vain...

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#140

Post by michael mills » 08 Nov 2012, 05:48

Here is some interesting material from the book "Poland Between East and West", by Josef Korbel (Madeleine Albright's father).

It documents an approach to Germany made by PIlsudski in July 1926, shortly after he had seized power in Poland.

Page 211:
Toward the end of JUly 1926 Dr H Diamand, a member of the Sejm for the Polish Socialist Party, visited Germany in the capacity of an official emissary of Pilsudski. On July 28 he was received by Stresemann to discuss the Polish claims for permanent representation on the Council of the League of Nations. In return, "Poland would be ready to offer Germany compensation", he stated, according to Stresemann's record of the conversation. "Herr Pilsudski puts extraordinary importance on reaching friendly relations with Germany", stated Diamand. He went on to quote Pilsudski as having once said that "in general it was correct that the more land one possessed the more power one has. Poland, however, has far too many aliens among her population and under the circumstances it would be better to give up land in order to strengthen national unity". Stresemann reacted to this amazing statement with obvious caution, expressing in general terms only Germany's wish for an understanding between the two countries.
It appears that Pilsudski was eager to improve relations with Germany, reversing the anti-German position of the preceding Polish governments which had been under strong Endecja influence, and may have been prepared to Germany some of the territory it had lost in 1918-20. That would have been consistent with his view, expressed to Count Harry Kessler back in 1918, during the informal negotiations that resulted the end of his confinement in Magdeburg and his return to Warsaw, that it would be counter-productive for Poland to accept German territory, since that would only cause permanent enmity between Germany and Poland.

Stresemann and Pilsudski met personally on 9 December 1927, at a meeting of the League of Nations in Geneva. They both attended a breakfast meeting with the British, French and Italian Foreign Minister's. Korbel has this to say about the meeting:

Pages 240-242
The conversation that morning zigzagged from one subject to another as the Marshal spoke at length about the past, World War I, peppering his monologue with laughter and anecdotes. "I have seldom assisted at a more amusing gathering", recorded Austen Chamberlain. However, it must have been less amusing to the representatives of Great Britain, France, and Italy, to whom Poland owed her resurrection after the war, when in their presence - and undoubtedly to Stresemann's satisfaction - Pilsudski, who never concealed his respect for the German army and German efficiency, seized upon this opportune occasion to extol the German army's "heroic achievements".

After the breakfast, Pilsudski and Stresemann met privately. Pilsudski assured Stresemann of his sincere desire to establish good relations with Germany and rejected emphatically the allegation that he harboured a secret desire to seize East Prussia. "When you go to Königsberg [the ancient capital of East Prussia] you can tell everybody on my behalf that there are not half a dozen people in Poland who would have such thoughts", stated Pilsudski. He continued, "What should we do with East Prussia? We do not need it". When Stresemann mentioned a few questions of a practical economic nature which divided the two countries, Pilsudski answered with a sweeping gesture and indicated that he wanted to settle all questions with Germany. "We can settle the whole thing in six months", he stated. Stresemann was obviously impressed by Pilsudski's sincerity; but, aware of the complexity and the emotional intensity of the Polish-German relations, he reacted rather cautiously to Pilsudski's exuberant offer.

Two days after the conversation, Briand asked Stresemann if he had mentioned to Pilsudski the question of the Polish boundary. Stresemann answered in the negative and explained that he had seen the Polish statemen for the first time in his life and therefore could not raise immediately the question of frontiers. Briand expressed regret, for he was convicned that Stresemann "would have found him [Pilsudski] on all questions which [existed] between Germany and Poland more open-minded than [he] perhaps [thought] himself". Briand and Stresemann then discussed a possible compensation for Poland, and according to Stresemann, "Herr Briand was quite enthusiastic about the idea" of giving Poland a free port in Danzig and eventually a free port in Memel. Stresemann recorded with particular satisfaction that Briand "did not utter a single word of criticism against the thought of a change of boundaries".
Stresemann, as a democratic politician, was too constrained by public opinion in Germany to respond to Pilsudski's overtures and end the anti-Polish stance of all the German republican governments before 1933. It was only with Hitler's assumption of power that there emerged a German Government strong enough to force through a radical change of policy and seek detente with Poland. The result was the German-Polish Declaration on Non-Aggression of 28 January 1934, and subsequent tentative moves toward an alliance based on common hostility toward the Soviet Union.

Unfortunately, Pilsudski fell sick at the beginning of 1935 and died in May of that year; his successors were much weaker than he and unable to resist the opposition of the anti-German chauvinist forces within Poland. The result was that the move toward closer relations with Germany was halted (although there are indications that Foreign Minister Beck wanted to continue that movement as being in line with Pilsudski's intentions), and the Sanacja regime gradually moved closer to the anti-German position of Endecja. Eventually, in April 1939 Poland joined Britain and France in an anti-German alliance, which brought disaster upon the Polish people.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#141

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2012, 12:25

The last sentence has been debunked countless times:there was no anti-German alliance,there ever was no alliance .

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#142

Post by wm » 08 Nov 2012, 18:40

When Stresemann mentioned a few questions of a practical economic nature which divided the two countries, Pilsudski answered with a sweeping gesture and indicated that he wanted to settle all questions with Germany. "We can settle the whole thing in six months", he stated.
I bet he was thinking "at Germany's expense you loser" :)
Seriously the main goal was to improve Poland's political standing in Europe, he wanted to make Poland a European power. All the bilateral agreements so beloved by Piłsudski and Beck were meant to achieve this goal.
This goal couldn't be achieved by cooperation with Germany because cooperation requires equal partners. An unequal partnership would invite abuse.

In Poland there was no politician or political party that wasn't afraid of Germany (including Piłsudski) because of its obvious political and military superpower status. Germany was a constant clear and present danger to Poland.
If it means that they were rabid anti-German chauvinists, then let it be :)

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#143

Post by michael mills » 09 Nov 2012, 00:05

Germany was a constant clear and present danger to Poland.
A paranoid concept.

The main danger to Poland was the Soviet Union, which had actually invaded the country with the aim of imposing a Communist Government on it that would be totally subservient to Moscow. Throughout the 1920s and 30s the Soviet Government treated Poland as an enemy state that would eventually have to be crushed. Stalin in particular regarded the Polish people as an enemy, as is clearly demonstrated by his disproportionate targeting of the ethnic Polish minority in the Soviet Union during the Great Terror.

By contrast, the German Government under the leadership of Hitler made strenuous efforts to achieve a good relationship with Poland, based on a common opposition to the Soviet threat. To that end, it offered to abandon all claims to former German territory, except for Danzig, in the same way as it had abandoned claims to South Tyrol in order to achieve a good relationship with Italy.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#144

Post by pugsville » 09 Nov 2012, 01:56

As Nazi Germany invaded and then imposed a extremely brutal occupation how can it be called paranoid? It WAS realistic.
Events, actual real world events absolutely proved that Polish fears of Germany were 100% correct. Calling fear of German Invasion "a paranoid concept" when they soon did, it it refuse to face historical fact.

Hitler and the Nazi regime were Ideologically opposed to the mere existence of Poland, regarded the Poles as a sub human race who if they world was run correctly be reduced to slaves or eliminated. The brutal occupation quickly become policy to not feed parts of the polish population. Right from the start there was NO "occupied" Poland, it was an administered territory, not an occupied state, as far as the Nazi's were concerned Poland no longer existed, and would Never exist again. The Polish population were brutally treated right from the start. So.. 1939 just Danzig and Germany and Poland can be friend forever with respect, peace and understanding, but once the Germans actually invaded, 6 weeks later the complete elimination of Poland, Brutal suppression of the population ? Thats not the acts of someone who respects you, while having a minor border disagreement.

Hitler and the Nazis were habitual liars, public statements were just stuff to manipulate people. Whenever Hitler said the words he only wanted one more thing and he would be satisfied he was always lying.

Hitler issued an unconditional demand, and did Invade. After staging a ludicrous incident that involved the murder of some prisoners. Killing a few people just to provide some "substance" to their staged border incident to justify their invasion. (which if they were fully justified in invading why would they be staging such incidents, and it was of course anther lie)

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#145

Post by michael mills » 09 Nov 2012, 14:05

Hitler and the Nazi regime were Ideologically opposed to the mere existence of Poland,
The above statement by Pugsville demonstrates a lamentable ignorance of historical fact, which I suggest he make an effort to learn.

Every reputable history of German-Polish relations in the inter-war period affirms that when Hitler came to power in 1933, he reversed the policy of his predecessors, which was based on de-facto co-operation with the Soviet Union against Poland, in favour of a policy of co-operation with Poland gainst the Soviet Union.

Hitler in fact favoured a strong Poland that would form a bulwark against Soviet expansion, and eventually become Germany's ally in a crusade to overthrow Bolshevism.
Hitler and the Nazis were habitual liars, public statements were just stuff to manipulate people.
There is no reason to doubt that Hitler was entirely genuine in his opposition to Bolshevism, and in his desire to form alliances with states that were equally opposed to the Soviet Union, such as Poland, Hungary and Romania. He succeeded in making allies of Hungary and Romania in his war on Bolshevism, but failed in the case of Poland, due to British machinations.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#146

Post by wm » 09 Nov 2012, 19:57

michael mills wrote:
Germany was a constant clear and present danger to Poland.
A paranoid concept.
Exactly :)
But the realities of the early twenty century Europe required politicians to be paranoid and plan moves according to its neighbor political and military capabilities not soft words of its leaders.
They weren't afraid of 1920's Germany. They were afraid of the future when Germany would regain its superpower status. That was inevitable, they never found a good answer to that problem so understandably they were afraid of what future would bring.
michael mills wrote:The main danger to Poland was the Soviet Union, which had actually invaded the country with the aim of imposing a Communist Government on it that would be totally subservient to Moscow. Throughout the 1920s and 30s the Soviet Government treated Poland as an enemy state that would eventually have to be crushed. Stalin in particular regarded the Polish people as an enemy, as is clearly demonstrated by his disproportionate targeting of the ethnic Polish minority in the Soviet Union during the Great Terror.
The USSR was seen as a weak country and its future was in doubt, he had no allies and was inside a political cordon sanitaire. Any Soviet aggression would be met by an international response much stronger that was there against the Germany aggression in 1939.
Stalin had to wait for someone who would destroy the European stability and security, before that he couldn't even dream of making any move, and Hitler volunteered for the job.
Without Hitler Stalin wasn't dangerous.
So the primary danger was Germany, the USSR was a secondary.
michael mills wrote:By contrast, the German Government under the leadership of Hitler made strenuous efforts to achieve a good relationship with Poland, based on a common opposition to the Soviet threat. To that end, it offered to abandon all claims to former German territory, except for Danzig, in the same way as it had abandoned claims to South Tyrol in order to achieve a good relationship with Italy.
That's nice that he abandon all claims to the territories that had been in Poland's possession for 800 years :) .
Claims of good will, declarations of desire to achieve a good relationship can't replace a common ground or common goals, and there were none.
michael mills wrote:There is no reason to doubt that Hitler was entirely genuine in his opposition to Bolshevism
That's bad. For Germany the USSR was an opportunity not a threat. It seems he wasn't a politician, working for his country but an ideologue, and an ideologue is a disaster for any country.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#147

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Nov 2012, 13:31

Hi Michael,

You describe that the proposition that "Germany was a constant clear and present danger to Poland" as a "A paranoid concept."

As the old retort goes, "Just because you are panoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you."

The historical record is absolutely clear. Germany had shared in the total extinction of the Polish state in the 1780s and 1790s. From the mid-19th Century it had engaged in the deliberatye assimilation of its Poles through the education system and government service. It had only released Poland from its rule when beaten in WWI. In 1938 Hitler had renewed demands on Poland that would again have begun to limit its sovereignty.

So, is it any wonder that the Poles were paranoid by 1939?

And how right they were to be so. Poland proved not to be just another occupied country to Nazi Germany. Poland was the only occupied country over 1939-45 for which the Nazis recognized no national representation, either in exile or as a puppet. Why? Because they were then engaged in the early stages of what was intended to be the total elimination of the Polish population from Poland.

Whether Hitler, the classic tactical opportunist, was ideologically opposed to the mere existence of Poland or not, the fact remains that once he had absolute power over Poland he acted to eliminate it entirely.

Thus I would suggest we can say with absolute certainty that Hitler was never ideologically wedded in principle to the continued existence of Poland. If he was, he would have acted differently after 1939.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#148

Post by michael mills » 13 Nov 2012, 07:03

Thus I would suggest we can say with absolute certainty that Hitler was never ideologically wedded in principle to the continued existence of Poland. If he was, he would have acted differently after 1939.
Sid,

What you are ignoring here is that Hitler's attitude toward Poland was entirely determined by Poland's attitude toward Germany.

If Poland was willing to be an ally of Germany in the struggle against Bolshevism, then Hitler was more than happy for a large Poland to continue to exist, since with its relatively strong military it would constitute a buffer against the westward expansion of Bolshevism (as it had in 1920), and eventually would contribute to the overthrow of Soviet power (ie it would play the role that Finland, Hungary and Romania later did in 1941). Hitler was even supportive of Polish eastward expansion, proposing the division of Ukraine between Poland and Germany, with Poland taking the territory west of the Dnepr.

On the other hand, if Poland turned against Germany and joined its enemies in an encirclement, as it did in 1939, then Hitler saw it as vital to smash Polish military power before it could be joined to that of France and Britain in the West.

Furthermore, Hitler took the Polish rejection of his overtures of friendship as a personal affront, and turned his previously positive attitude toward the Polish people into a negative one. After a meeting with Hitler in August 1939, the High Commissioner for Danzig, Carl Burckhardt, commented on Hitler's "feminine" personality; well, Hell hath no fury like a Hitler scorned.

Once Poland had decisively turned against Germany and joined its enemies, Hitler saw no reason to continue to resist those forces in Germany that demanded the seizure from Poland of those territories that had been German before the First World War, plus the border strip that it had been proposed to annex during that war. Nevertheless, the documentation shows that Hitler initially envisaged the continued existence of a Polish rump state to the east of the territory taken back by Germany, restricted to the Polish ethnic heartland, and under the rule of a government subordinate to Germany.

Again as is clearly shown by the documentation, it was Stalin who, in the negotiations leading to the Soviet-German Borders and Friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939, vetoed the continued existence of any form of Polish political entity, on the grounds that any such entity would inevitably become a source of contention between German and the Soviet Union. Stalin demanded a common German-Soviet border, with no Polish buffer state separating them.

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#149

Post by pugsville » 13 Nov 2012, 10:30

So Poland churlish refusal of totally adopted the foreign Policies Hitler wanted, and Border Adjustments He insisted on was such a provocation that Hitler was forced to invade Poland, and it was Stalin that forced Hitler to brutally suppress the Poland and commit mass murder?

And It's somehow more justified because Hitler was personally offended?

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Re: If Poland had become Germany's ally rather than its enem

#150

Post by wm » 13 Nov 2012, 11:55

After conquering the USSR the Nazi-Polish honeymoon would be over. The defenseless Poland would be not only expendable but a serious obstacle to the Nazi greatness, as it is shown below, this marriage had no future whatsoever.
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Last edited by wm on 13 Nov 2012, 12:14, edited 1 time in total.

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