Polish Foreign Minister Beck a German agent

[Jack Carter]

Recently discovered documents in the Russian archives shows that Polish Foreign Minister Jozef Beck was recruited as a German agent in 1938.

http://historyfoundation.ru/ru/news_item.php?id=2114.

Certainly not so original and not the first time. I remember that Saddam Husseins last foreign minister was on the CIA payroll.

[Artur Szulc]

Well, I would not say that this information shows us anything. The information that Beck was recruited as a German agent comes from a Soviet interrogation. I would not describe that as a thrustworthy source. This must be confirmed by other sources.

But even if the information is correst, Beck did a poor job as a German agent. Germany invaded Poland on the 1st of september 1939 and Germanys partner, the Soviets, invaded on the 17th.

[Jack Carter]

Well, I would not say that this information shows us anything. The information that Beck was recruited as a German agent comes from a Soviet interrogation. I would not describe that as a thrustworthy source. This must be confirmed by other sources.

But even if the information is correst, Beck did a poor job as a German agent. Germany invaded Poland on the 1st of september 1939 and Germanys partner, the Soviets, invaded on the 17th.

So what if it comes from a Soviet interrogation? This is something that has been kept secret until now. With that kind of thinking you can also dismiss all the information from the interrogations of the major Nazi war criminals in Nuremberg.

But I agree that Beck obviously did a poor job. I do not remember the exact source (can try and find it) but Beck is said to have told the Germans that he wanted to give in to their demands but that the other members of the Polish government refused.

[Artur Szulc]

So what if it comes from a Soviet interrogation? This is something that has been kept secret until now. With that kind of thinking you can also dismiss all the information from the interrogations of the major Nazi war criminals in Nuremberg.

Am I understanding you correctly. You argue that it is not necessary to raise questions regarding information gathered in a Soviet interrogation? To prove your point you write that with that kind of thinking (exactly what are you refering to?) one can also dismiss all the information from interrogations from Nurnberg. Here I do not follow you path of logic.


And the information that Beck was a German agent has not been a secret until now. Already back in 2009 the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service announced that Beck was a German spy.

And this is not the first time such rumours appear. Already back in the 1930´s the French also let such rumours circle around, telling that Beck was a German and Austrian spy during his time as a military attache in Paris 1922-23.

So, until any strong evidence appear, my conclusion is that Beck was no German agent, nor in the 1920´s or 1930´s.

[Jack Carter]

Am I understanding you correctly. You argue that it is not necessary to raise questions regarding information gathered in a Soviet interrogation? To prove your point you write that with that kind of thinking (exactly what are you refering to?) one can also dismiss all the information from interrogations from Nurnberg. Here I do not follow you path of logic.

And the information that Beck was a German agent has not been a secret until now. Already back in 2009 the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service announced that Beck was a German spy.

And this is not the first time such rumours appear. Already back in the 1930´s the French also let such rumours circle around, telling that Beck was a German and Austrian spy during his time as a military attache in Paris 1922-23.

So, until any strong evidence appear, my conclusion is that Beck was no German agent, nor in the 1920´s or 1930´s.

I mean what I said, namely that with this kind of thinking (that all information gathered in an interrogation) you can dismiss all kinds of interrogations. This interrogation took place in 1948. In that time Beck had been dead for four years. So what possible motive could the Soviets had in extracting this kind of information (I take it for granted that this is what you mean) and then classify it. 2009 is more or less now in my book. My conclusion is the opposite. I find this to be strong evidence that Jozef Beck was paid by the Germans.

One more thing. Why did Beck stay in Romania during the war?

/Jack C.

[Artur Szulc]

This interrogation took place in 1948

I belive You are wrong, the interrogation took place in august 1945 according to information on this website.


http://pro-et-contra.com/topic/6662-%D0 ... %B0%D0%B2/


Why did Beck stay in Romania?

That is like asking; why did thousands of Polish soldiers and officers stay in Romania.

Many Polish politicans stayed in Romania beacuse they were interned by Romanian authorities.
Ignacy Moscicki, the former president, was released and went to Switzerland. Smigly-Rydz escaped and went back to Poland, to fight as a regular solditer in the underground, but he died shorty after his arrival.

Now, why are you asking this kind of insidious question. If you know why he stayed in Romania, then write it out loud.
But I have a pretty good idea what you answer will be. He plotted with the Germans, right?

[Jack Carter]

I belive You are wrong, the interrogation took place in august 1945 according to information on this website.


http://pro-et-contra.com/topic/6662-%D0 ... %B0%D0%B2/


Why did Beck stay in Romania?

That is like asking; why did thousands of Polish soldiers and officers stay in Romania.

Many Polish politicans stayed in Romania beacuse they were interned by Romanian authorities.
Ignacy Moscicki, the former president, was released and went to Switzerland. Smigly-Rydz escaped and went back to Poland, to fight as a regular solditer in the underground, but he died shorty after his arrival.

Now, why are you asking this kind of insidious question. If you know why he stayed in Romania, then write it out loud.
But I have a pretty good idea what you answer will be. He plotted with the Germans, right?

I stand corrected. The interrogation took place in 1945. But the fact still remains that Beck was dead at that time and I see no reason whatsoever why the Soviets would have coerced this information from Gerstenberg and then classify it.

I was just curious of why Beck stayed there, that's all. Plotting with the Germans? Who knows, from October 1940 Romania was more or less a German satellite. I also heard (forgot the source) that Sikorski did not want Beck to have anything to do with the exile government in France.

[wm]

I was just curious of why Beck stayed there, that's all. Plotting with the Germans?

The reason was that he had nowhere to go. After the 1939 war he was a nobody and at the top of many people's hate list. After all Beck was a poster boy of, widely blamed for the 1939 defeat of the Polish Army, the Sanacja Regime and for the new Polish Government he was an unwelcome person.

As for the spy business it is hard to understand why a German spy was so staunchly against the anti-Soviet Polish-German cooperation. He was fond saying "the Germany will win (the German/Polish war with the Soviet Union) but in the end Poles will only tend German cows on Ural".

[henryk]

Soviet propaganda. Unfortunately Anna M. Cienciala's article on Beck does not seem to be available online.
"The Foreign Policy of Jozef Pilsudski and Jozef Beck, 1926-1939: Misconceptions and Interpretations,"
The Polish Review , Vol. LVI (2011), Nos. 1-2, pp. 111-151.

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse. ... &user=&pw=

From: pmd@post.harvard.edu [mailto:pmdab@comcast.net]
List Editor: "Stuntz, Jean" <jstuntz@MAIL.WTAMU.EDU>
Editor's Subject: Re: Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs Jozef Beck was recruited by the Nazis in 1938
Author's Subject: Re: Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs Jozef Beck was recruited by the Nazis in 1938
Date Written: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:08:14 -0500
Date Posted: Fri, 30 Jun 2011 19:08:14 -0400

Dear Colleagues,


I took the liberty of forwarding Grover Furr's recent post to Anna Cienciala,
Professor of History emerita at the University of Kansas, a historian of Poland
and expert on Beck, for clarification. Here is her response to me, which she
asked that I post to the list-serve:

Dear Patrice,

Regarding the Grover Furr item from the Russian "History Foundation" on Polish
Foreign Minister Jozef Beck recruited as a German agent, this is an old
chestnut used by both Soviet and some Russian media to justify the Nazi-Soviet
Pact of August 23, 1939.

If Beck had been a German agent, he would have accepted Hitler's demands
regarding Danzig and the Polish Corridor, and then marched with him onto
Moscow.

But, as you may recall, he accepted a British guarantee of Polish independence
and then an alliance with Britain. In addition, Poland was the first country to
actively resist a German invasion. This proved a failure due to the Soviet
invasion of eastern Poland and lack of French and British action in the west.

If any H-Russia members are interested, they are invited to read more about
Beck in Anna M. Cienciala, "The Foreign Policy of Jozef Pilsudski and Jozef
Beck, 1926-1939: Misconceptions and Interpretations," The Polish Review , Vol.
LVI (2011), Nos. 1-2, pp. 111-151.

Best,
Anna

Professor Cienciala attached the article to the reply she sent me. I believe
that one cannot post attachments to list-serves. That said, I would be happy to
forward a copy of her article, via attachment, to anyone interested in reading
it.

With best wishes,
Patrice Dabrowski
------------------------
Dr. Patrice M. Dabrowski
pmd@post.harvard.edu
------------------------

[Jack Carter]

Soviet propaganda? Hardly, since this information was hidden in the Russian archives during the whole Soviet era.

[Artur Szulc]

Yes, Soviet propaganda.

Why didnt the Soviets reveal this information in august 1945? Beck was dead and he was not a popular figure among Poles or Polish politicians.

And let me gets this strait:

Jack C, You belive that the interrogation of Gerstenberg is a trustworthy source.

1) Gerstenberg was interrogated in august 1945, while in Soviet captivity.
2) Gerstenberg told the Soviet interrogators only what he had heard from Moltke (who died in 1943). So Gerstenbeg is only reapeating what he supposedly was told by Moltke.
3) Why did not the Soviets confirm this. They could easily have interrogated Göring about it.
4) 300 000 mark? And Beck was given a cheque? How did he draw such amount of money without anyone taking notice?

(Thanks to Ben at skalman.nu for stating the obvious)

So, Jack C, be a litte critical. Do not swallow this information just like that beacuse you whant it to be true.

[Art]

Regarding the Grover Furr item from the Russian "History Foundation" on Polish
Foreign Minister Jozef Beck recruited as a German agent, this is an old
chestnut used by both Soviet and some Russian media to justify the Nazi-Soviet
Pact of August 23, 1939.

That is what Orwell called a duckspeak. First, the document wasn't published before 2011 so it couldn't be used by Soviet media without inventing a time machine. Then the publication of the document had nothing to do "History Foundation", It was published in the known series of the Alexander Yakovlev's fund. The book can be ordered for example here. Whether what Gerstenberg said was true or not is another issue which can't be resolved without additional sources.

[Jack Carter]

Yes, Soviet propaganda.

Why didnt the Soviets reveal this information in august 1945? Beck was dead and he was not a popular figure among Poles or Polish politicians.

Probably because it had no importance at that time. As you said, Beck was dead. But I am curious to know more about Beck not being a popular figure among Poles and Polish politicians. Can you elaborate on that?

Jack C, You belive that the interrogation of Gerstenberg is a trustworthy source.

At the moment, yes and that for reasons stated above. But it is not a so-called "smoking gun".

1) Gerstenberg was interrogated in august 1945, while in Soviet captivity.
2) Gerstenberg told the Soviet interrogators only what he had heard from Moltke (who died in 1943). So Gerstenbeg is only reapeating what he supposedly was told by Moltke.
3) Why did not the Soviets confirm this. They could easily have interrogated Göring about it.
4) 300 000 mark? And Beck was given a cheque? How did he draw such amount of money without anyone taking notice?

1. So?
2. Yes, very true. But Moltke as being the German ambassador was in a position to know.
3. Probably because it was not that important in their eyes. Beck was dead and a has-been.
4. I think you underestimate the possibility that high officials have in such cases.

So, Jack C, be a litte critical. Do not swallow this information just like that beacuse you whant it to be true.

I do not want it to be true nor do I want it not to be true. No labels thank you very much.

Finally, again this is no "smoking gun". But it is evidence that in my opinion is compatible with many other things that we know about Beck.

/Jack C.

[Jack Carter]

Regarding the Grover Furr item from the Russian "History Foundation" on Polish
Foreign Minister Jozef Beck recruited as a German agent, this is an old
chestnut used by both Soviet and some Russian media to justify the Nazi-Soviet
Pact of August 23, 1939.

That is what Orwell called a duckspeak. First, the document wasn't published before 2011 so it couldn't be used by Soviet media without inventing a time machine. Then the publication of the document had nothing to do "History Foundation", It was published in the known series of the Alexander Yakovlev's fund. The book can be ordered for example here. Whether what Gerstenberg said was true or not is another issue which can't be resolved without additional sources.

I agree with you, Art. Additional sources is needed. There is of course always some other possibilities here: 1. Gerstenberg lied for some reason. 2. Gerstenberg misunderstood Moltke or remembered wrong. 3. The Soviets could have either coerced Gerstenberg's testimony or falsified for some unknown reason.

There are other possibilities too. But we must ask ourselves how likely is it that it happened in any of these three ways?

Until, and IF, any other evidence surfaces, I believe that Gerstenberg's testimony must be regarded as truthful.

[Artur Szulc]

The thing is Jack C, is that it does not surface for you to "belive" Gerstenbergs statements are true.

The same goes for what is "likely".

Common-sense-reasoning have no substance when trying to prove a historical fact.

The burden of proof lies on those who argue that Beck was a German agent and that he was given 300 000 marks for his services.

"Belives" and "likelihoods" are proofs of nothing.

A statement by Gerstenberg, who heard it from Moltke, during a interrogation in Soviet capativity can, at best, be seen as hearsay. And nothing more.