Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake?

[gebhk]

No, the Jews were killed because they were Jews,

You now seem to be arguing against yourself. It was your agrument not mine that being slaughtered by the Nazis was evidence of resistance. Now you are saying the opposite.

No the made the decision themselves in 1943

Who is the 'they'?

the Soviets didn't need such a pointless improvement.

Given the defense significance of this strip it was far from a pointless improvement

if there was no perceivable benefit in fighting alone, there was no benefit in fighting a general European war alongside the Allies too

A fallacious argument I'm afraid because the obvious benefit of fighting a general European war alongside the allies was a good chance of winning, preserving independence, boundaries and way of life.

During the battle of Shanghai the best Chinese divisions were thrown into battle to prove the Chinese were able to fight and weren't cowards. It was known they would be annihilated eventually, and the war would be lost. They did it solely to elicit support from the West - that would never come.

You seem to be grossly oversimplifying an incredibly complex political situation. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the China that these divisions fought for did not survive as you say but was swept away by the Communists, in no small part because the Nationalist armies were bled white by the fighting against Japan.

It seems nations are built on Shanghais.

In much the same way as post war Poland was built on September 1939 and post war Yugoslavia on Operation 25. Not what I would call a recommendation. Post war Czechoslovakia ended up in much the same situation politically albeit in much better shape and with proportionally considerably fewer casualties along the way, so being thoroughly defeated in a war of annhihilation is clearly not essential for nation-building

Of course, you can't argue with results, even if a little random. If Hitler had stopped his expansion after March 1939, they would have been a colony of the thousand-year Third Reich for a long time, and certainly would have lost the Sudetenland for ever.

Not if his expansion had been stopped before March 1939 which is what we are talking about.

gebhk wrote:Czechoslovakia did shelter the Polish southern border - in fact the strategically most vital one - a simple perusal of a map demonstrates that very clearly. There is absolutely no question that Poland needed that border protecting.


Czechoslovakia did, but as it was unwilling to die for Poland it didn't matter. Poland put its hopes in Slovakia and Hungary.

But anyway it looks that way only on a map without the relief of the terrain shown. There are quite nasty mountains along the border, and very few useful invasion routes - in fact it was the easiest to defend of all the Polish borders.

The 'nasty mountains' were no substitute for having to fight through an allied natiuon as September 1939 demonstrated. The significance of the Southern border was not it's defensibility but the fact that it was the essential base of the 'secure triangle' , the fundamental necessity of all Polish defensive planning, without which any defense was doomed from the outset.

[wm]

No, the Jews were killed because they were Jews,

You now seem to be arguing against yourself. It was your agrument not mine that being slaughtered by the Nazis was evidence of resistance. Now you are saying the opposite.

Well, it was unfortunately figure of speech, the point is the Jews were killed for irrational reasons, the Polish elites for rational ones.

No the made the decision themselves in 1943

Who is the 'they'?

The Czechoslovak Government in London.

the Soviets didn't need such a pointless improvement.

Given the defense significance of this strip it was far from a pointless improvement

The territories would have been given to the GDR, Poland and the peaceful Austria. Not much danger from those.

if there was no perceivable benefit in fighting alone, there was no benefit in fighting a general European war alongside the Allies too

A fallacious argument I'm afraid because the obvious benefit of fighting a general European war alongside the allies was a good chance of winning, preserving independence, boundaries and way of life.

That's correct but it would be costly and not a sure victory. Hitler wanted that war, and felt cheated out of it afterward. He thought it would be advantageous to do it right then. The French were weak and the British were nowhere to be seen on the continent.

During the battle of Shanghai the best Chinese divisions were thrown into battle to prove the Chinese were able to fight and weren't cowards. It was known they would be annihilated eventually, and the war would be lost. They did it solely to elicit support from the West - that would never come.

You seem to be grossly oversimplifying an incredibly complex political situation. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the China that these divisions fought for did not survive as you say but was swept away by the Communists, in no small part because the Nationalist armies were bled white by the fighting against Japan.

I thought the modern Chinese nationalism was born there, and the country was awaken from the prevailing apathy. The communists were Chinese too, so what happened ten years later is of no importance. After all the modern Chinese communists are preserving the legend of Shanghai today.

It seems nations are built on Shanghais.

In much the same way as post war Poland was built on September 1939 and post war Yugoslavia on Operation 25. Not what I would call a recommendation. Post war Czechoslovakia ended up in much the same situation politically albeit in much better shape and with proportionally considerably fewer casualties along the way, so being thoroughly defeated in a war of annhihilation is clearly not essential for nation-building

Well, Czechoslovakia disintegrated the very minute it was allowed to do it. Westerplatte is the Polish Shanghai. Even the Polish communist gave up eventually and adopted the legend.

The 'nasty mountains' were no substitute for having to fight through an allied natiuon as September 1939 demonstrated. The significance of the Southern border was not it's defensibility but the fact that it was the essential base of the 'secure triangle' , the fundamental necessity of all Polish defensive planning, without which any defense was doomed from the outset.

As the German-Polish border was almost seven time longer than the new Czecho-Slovak-Polish border it really didn't matter at all. They didn't need it.
The Wehrmacht reached the secure triangle at the six day of the war - driving from the German border. It was just a two hours drive.

The Poles tried hard to establish a close a political and military cooperation with Czechoslovakia. The Czech didn't wanted it and really didn't need it - the Poles had two major enemies, they had none, later one. So from their side it was a correct decision - the rejection was reasonable.

It's a nonsense it was about some tiny territory, or hate or whatever. The Czech didn't want, and didn't need such a troublesome ally as Poland.