Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake?

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ljadw
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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#181

Post by ljadw » 26 Mar 2014, 12:42

The French/Polish treaty never had the importance it later was given by the armchair generals using the obligate hindsight. I doubt it ever had any importance .

When it was signed,a German attack on Poland/France was out of the question,the same for a Soviet attack on Pland .

Why was it signed ? excepted for propaganda,it was France putting Poland in leading strings: if there was something that France (not Poland :wink: ) would consider as an unprovoked attack on Poland,France would help Poland . How ? As this was not defined,it could be a stern warning on the country that attacked Poland.But,if France considered a conflict between Poland and Lithuania about Wilna as a not unprovoked attack,France would not intervene.

In 1929,the treaty lost all importance for France,which was chosing a defensive strategy by building the Maginot line : every pretence that France would fight to prevent Germany dominating Eastern Europe,was given up : Eastern Europe became again what it always had been for France : meaningless .

For Poland,the treaty never was the corner-stone of her foreign policy :the survival of ¨Poland would not depend on a country which was situated 1000 km away,but on the hostility between its neighbours (Germany and the SU) ;when this hostility was replaced by cooperation,it was over for Poland : Polonia finita .

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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#182

Post by gebhk » 26 Mar 2014, 17:19

Your comments are partially accurate, however a gross oversimplification. Never since the dawn of time have all the parties to a treaty had the same agenda and the same expectations of the treaty, especially one with an 18-year lifetime such as this one. As the environment changed and as relationships between Poland and France periodically warmed and cooled so how the alliance was viewed changed over time in Warsaw and Paris and whole books have been written about the subject. Clearly Poland's quarrels or even wars with Lithuania or for that matter Czechoslovakia, Austria or Timbuctoo were of no concern to France as they were not covered by the 1921 alliance - Germany and the USSR were. Likewise while you are clearly correct that it was up to the French to evaluate if any Polish military action or reaction came under the definitions of the agreement for French intervention you omit to say that the reverse was also true. That is why, of course, France consulted with Poland before coming to decisions on the Rhineland and Czechoslovakia.

It is an important point however that while the 1921 treaty was probably never a cornerstone of Polish foreign policy, as you say, it undoubtedly was the cornerstone of Polish military strategy in the late 1930's and especially in 1939.

It is of course an interesting question if Poland had never had the 1921 alliance, whether that would have forced her to make a greater effort to ally herself with Czechoslovakia - an alliance that was arguably far more essential to Poland's survival than that with France.


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wm
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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#183

Post by wm » 27 Mar 2014, 07:21

Poland understood perfectly that the treaty was worthless, even a blind man could see that - especially after the humiliating for Poland Locarno Treaties of 1925, and the Four-Power Pact of 1933.

It wasn't a cornerstone because France didn't want that, effectively abandoning Poland in Locarno and later, so Poland was forced to prop itself up with bilateral treaties with Germany, the USSR, and others.

The locarnisation of Eastern Europe resulted in the impossibility of any mutual Polish-Czechoslovak agreement too. The Czechs blindly and naively believed in the French sweet-talk, and Poland wasn't able to talk them out of it.
Especially the Czechs support for the Four-Power Pact convinced Poles that they were nothing more than French useful idiots, and worthless as allies.

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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#184

Post by ljadw » 27 Mar 2014, 09:36

Well,that's the Polish POV : the French POV was that the only aim of the treaty with Poland was to protect France if it was attacked by Germany . At the end of the twenties,the French POV was that it was better for France to build the Maginot line,which was a better substitute for an alliance with Poland,as the risk of such an alliance was that France would be involved in quarrels witch were not her business .

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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#185

Post by gebhk » 27 Mar 2014, 11:03

I think both of you are over-egging things. I would suggest firstly there was no uniform French or Polish view in the sense that different individuals involved had different opinions and that those opinions changed over time and in response to different situations.

If Poland "understood perfectly that the treaty was worthless" one can only wonder at the folly of the already comparatively impoverished Polish military crippling itself financially to maintain excessively large peacetime forces compliant with the demands of the treaty and basing its entire defensive strategy on French (and later also British) relief. If such understanding were true, Poland's foreign policy in the late 30s also would seem in many respects suicidal. Undoubtedly many Polish decision-makers had private qualms about the treaty in the run-up to the war, but that is a long way from understanding something is worthless. Previously, Pilsudzki clearly had little time for the Treaty which is no doubt why he pursued a policy of detente with Germany. But by the late 1930s he was gone and views and expectations changed over time.

With regard to Czechoslovakia, the most cursory look at the map indicates the absolute necessity for Poland and Czechoslovakia to cooperate if they were to survive (even before we look at the economic imperatives). That they did not proved tragic to both and the mutual finger pointing after the event is understandable but not terribly productive.

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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#186

Post by ljadw » 27 Mar 2014, 13:00

The Polish foreign policy was very reasonable,an other one would be suicidal,because : the survival of Poland was depending on the hostility between its neighbours,the moment these neighbours "were making a deal" ,it was over for Poland .Thus,Poland did not need an alliance with CZ. And,the problem of teschen/Teszin was a big obstacle for an alliance .


CZ : her position was hopeless: she was surrounded by hostile neighbours,and she was facing strong hostile minorities . Even after a victorious war,the problem of the Sudeten Germans would remain,the problem of the Hungarian minority would remain,etc .The only thing she could hope was that Britain and France would solve her problems,without war .But,as these would only intervene if there was a war....

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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#187

Post by steverodgers801 » 27 Mar 2014, 15:15

The Polish German détente only worked while Germany was disarmed. When Germany rearmed Poland was at a big disadvantage which became unworkable when the Soviets joined with the Nazi's

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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#188

Post by gebhk » 27 Mar 2014, 19:45

ljadw - everything you say about Czechoslovakia applied equally to Poland. All the more reason for both parties to secure at least one flank - in Poland's case the utterly crucial southern one.

Steve - I completely agree, all of which of course stimulated renewed Polish interest in and commitement to the 1921 alliance.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#189

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Mar 2014, 11:49

Hi ljadw,

I am not sure that history entirely agrees with the proposition, "Even after a victorious war,the problem of the Sudeten Germans would remain....."

I would also suggest that Poland picked the wrong side during the Munich Crisis. By putting pressure on Czechoslovakia at that time, Poland took the equivalent of a corps out of the Czech line of battle against the Germans and simultaneously allowed the Germans to denude their border with Poland of troops for use against Czechoslovakia.

For Poland to play an independent, proactive national role in stopping the Nazis it had to stand by Czechoslovakia. By not doing so it inititated the unravelling of both the Little and Balkan Ententes and its own alliance with Romania which left it alone in central Europe the following year.

It is easy to be wise after the event but, I would suggest, that retrospective wisdom implies that Poland was very short sighted during the Munich Crisis.

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#190

Post by wm » 28 Mar 2014, 12:03

Piłsudski and Beck were adherents of realpolitik, so they didn't fool themselves, they understood clearly France's aims, internal problems, limitations and aversions. The alliance was insufficient, and that was a reason for seeking other solutions but not for leaving the alliance - it was better than nothing.

For Piłsudski, in the long term, it was choice between German overlordship, Soviet overlordship or something else, although he had no idea what the "something else" might be, and told his "colonels" that in uncertain terms a few times.
The best he could come up with was surviving the future conflict somehow, by making it everyone's problem, setting fire to the world (competing ideas were: the constantly going nowhere Intermarium federation, and Europe under a benign German leadership but that wasn't taken seriously).

And Poland wasn't a hostile neighbour, Těšín wasn't an insurmountable problem. In fact the pre-war Polish press dedicated very little time to that question, and Piłsudski was sufficiently powerful to brush aside any objections.
And he was prepared to do that despite his personal dislike of Beneš, the last time in 1933 - at that time the preparations for serious talks were in an advanced stage, but Beneš's sudden, enthusiastic but naive support for the the Four-Power Pact (it was proposed in the most unfortunate moment by Mussolini it seems) convinced him that Czechoslovakia was still politically immature and nothing would come off it.

Later, the Polish idea of the Polish-Czechoslovak federation proved that Poland was the more realistic and forward thinking player but unfortunately at that time Beneš was nothing more but Stalin's lapdog, and Stalin had his own "federal" ideas.

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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#191

Post by ljadw » 28 Mar 2014, 12:29

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi ljadw,

I am not sure that history entirely agrees with the proposition, "Even after a victorious war,the problem of the Sudeten Germans would remain....."

I would also suggest that Poland picked the wrong side during the Munich Crisis. By putting pressure on Czechoslovakia at that time, Poland took the equivalent of a corps out of the Czech line of battle against the Germans and simultaneously allowed the Germans to denude their border with Poland of troops for use against Czechoslovakia.

For Poland to play an independent, proactive national role in stopping the Nazis it had to stand by Czechoslovakia. By not doing so it inititated the unravelling of both the Little and Balkan Ententes and its own alliance with Romania which left it alone in central Europe the following year.

It is easy to be wise after the event but, I would suggest, that retrospective wisdom implies that Poland was very short sighted during the Munich Crisis.




No : before 1938,the problem was that the SD refused to live together with the Czechs;after the war,the Czechs refused to live together with the SD.

As Chamberlain was writing in 1938:if there is a war and we win him,the SD will not disappear.

Unless there was an agreement in 1938 to expulse the SD after the winning of the war,the result would still be the presence of 3 million SD in CZ.



























































Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#192

Post by ljadw » 28 Mar 2014, 12:48

[quote="Sid Guttridge"]Hi ljadw,



I would also suggest that Poland picked the wrong side during the Munich Crisis. By putting pressure on Czechoslovakia at that time, Poland took the equivalent of a corps out of the Czech line of battle against the Germans and simultaneously allowed the Germans to denude their border with Poland of troops for use against Czechoslovakia.

For Poland to play an independent, proactive national role in stopping the Nazis it had to stand by Czechoslovakia. By not doing so it inititated the unravelling of both the Little and Balkan Ententes and its own alliance with Romania which left it alone in central Europe the following year.

It is easy to be wise after the event but, I would suggest, that retrospective wisdom implies that Poland was very short sighted during the Munich Crisis.

REPLY:
The existence of CZ was irrelevent for the survival of Poland;the survival of Poland was depending (ONLY :wink: ) on the hostility between its neighbours : as long as Stalin was blocking Hitler and Hitler was blocking Stalin,everything was OK (that's why Hitler was better than the Weimar band),but the moment Stalin and Hitler signed a new Rapollo,it was over for Poland : noone could save Poland from destruction .

It was not the role of Poland to stop the nazis : the self-interest of Poland was to prevent war,because even a victorious war would be bad for Poland : finis Germaniae would mean finis Poloniae,as it happened in 1945. Only the statu quo could save Poland,and,this did not depend on Poland,but on Hitler .

Besides : there was NO war for the SD,because the Czechs decided not to fight,and,I do not see why the Czechs would fight if Poland told them they would help CZ .

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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#193

Post by gebhk » 28 Mar 2014, 14:27

I would also suggest that Poland picked the wrong side during the Munich Crisis.
I agree, though I suspect for different reasons. Poland committed at the outset to fight for Czechoslovakia provided France did too and was prepared to do so throughout the sorry affair. When the affair unravelled, Poland was left scrabbling to salvage what it could of its national interest and was left clearly marked out as a vulnerable member of the anti-Nazi camp as well as becoming the whipping boy for all the greater sinners which qed it remains to this day.
For Poland to play an independent, proactive national role in stopping the Nazis it had to stand by Czechoslovakia.
Exactly how was she to do that beyond what she did? Unilaterally declare war on Germany when told very clearly that Czechoslovakia would not fight alongside Poland unless France did?

Best wishes
K

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wm
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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#194

Post by wm » 29 Mar 2014, 22:54

To be precise Poland was ready to die for France (in case of unprovoked aggression), but wasn't ready to die opposing the secession of the Sudeten Germans. Additionally Poland supported Slovak pro-independence movements and Hungarian irredentism in Czechoslovakia.
Poland was trying to strengthen its own position in Central Europe, and that meant cooperation with Slovakia, Hungary and Romania - but not with Czechoslovakia.
But calling that a mistake assumes that by supporting the artificial, easy to destabilize Czechoslovakia Poland would be able to save herself - but that was not probable. There was too many ways to skin the Czechoslovakian cat.

Additionally Poland was massively lied to and manipulated by Hitler and his cronies about Hitler's intentions. Supposedly Hitler's only aim was the Sudetenland and nothing more: Czechia, Slovakia, Danzig, the corridor were going to be safe.
One might ask wasn't Hitler a lying sob, why did they believe his words. Well at that time he wasn't, especially as it was an unprecedented breach of the most elementary notion of trust. Diplomats are supposed to lie but not on that scale - that will make any diplomacy pointless.
Many people were saying Poland would be next, but they didn't see all the assurances and promises dished out to Poland on each possible occasion.
I would say, without a crystal ball to see the future - Poland's policies were reasonable and based on available facts.

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Re: Was the Polish alliance with the UK and France a mistake

#195

Post by gebhk » 30 Mar 2014, 03:19

Poland was trying to strengthen its own position in Central Europe, and that meant cooperation with Slovakia, Hungary and Romania - but not with Czechoslovakia.
The trouble with that approach - incidentally in my view a very sound one, was that without Czechoslovakia Poland was unable, qed, to wield much influence as she did not have access to the levers of the little entente, or, on her own the military stick to compel or the carrot of military equipment production and other economic sweeteners to entice the feuding parties (such as Hungary and Romania) to toe the line in an wider alliance that actually had half a chance of keeping each of them alive.
But calling that a mistake assumes that by supporting the artificial, easy to destabilize Czechoslovakia Poland would be able to save herself - but that was not probable. There was too many ways to skin the Czechoslovakian cat.
Even a very superficial glance at the map clearly shows the absolute strategic imperative for Poland of keeping Czechoslovakia in one piece and at the very least neutral - no crystal ball needed there at all. Given that every single strategic defensive plan formulated in Poland between the wars relied on the 'safety triangle' principle, I find it incomprehensible that so much effort was put into undermining the fundament of that triangle, an activity which, if successful, would have rendered Poland utterly indefensible as history was soon to prove. Incidentally the argument you put forward here, if you exchange Poland for Czechoslovakia, is precisely the same one the Czechoslovaks used to justify their own attitude to the Polish question.

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