A 1933 proposal to resolve the Polish Corridor dispute

[4thskorpion]

I think it would be hard to separate any dataset that was not in part selectively manipulated by one side or another to prove a political claim, or counter claim, to territory during the various times the original data was collected...but they do make colourful graphics and maps.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

So, 4thskorpion, your main point is that all humans are one big closely related family ??? Or what ???

[4thskorpion]

So, 4thskorpion, your main point is that all humans are one big closely related family ??? Or what ???

No Peter, my main point is that the datasets make for colourful graphics and demographic maps but cannot be considered free of political manipulation or falsification given the politics of the various nation states involved in the region and their territorial claims and counter-claims.

[Gorque]

So, 4thskorpion, your main point is that all humans are one big closely related family ??? Or what ???

No Peter, my main point is that the datasets make for colourful graphics and demographic maps but cannot be considered free of political manipulation or falsification given the politics of the various nation states involved in the region and their territorial claims and counter-claims.

Hi 4thskorpion:

I agree. If we were to rely solely on Peter K's post of 1-15-16, one gets the impression that Protestants are mainly responsible for the horrors that were visited upon Europe during the term of the the Third Reich based on the below:

Legend to the map posted below:

(...) This map shows the influence of religious conviction on the Nazi vote for the Reichstag election 7/32. Elevation represents the share of Catholics / protestants (the higher, the more Catholics live in a Kreis / county) in relation to total population. The Nazi vote share is represented by different color shadings (dark red: highest NSDAP share; light green: lowest NSDAP share). The map reveals that the NSDAP strongholds are clearly restricted to protestant areas. This becomes very clear e.g. in East Prussia, where in a small catholic enclave the NSDAP performed very poorly in comparison to the surrounding Kreise dominated by protestants. It is also inportant to note that of the 21 Nazi Germans tried as war criminals at Nuremberg 16 indicated they were "Protestant." Lets Look at three of the most distinguished German Protestant theologians--Gerhard Kittel, Paul Althaus, and Emanual Hirsch. These men were highly respected, extremely erudite, uncommonly productive, and internationally known professors, each at a different, first-class university. (...)

And yet how does the above statement square when compared with the data presented below?



Now the events may be seen in a completely different light.

[Futurist]

So, 4thskorpion, your main point is that all humans are one big closely related family ??? Or what ???

No Peter, my main point is that the datasets make for colourful graphics and demographic maps but cannot be considered free of political manipulation or falsification given the politics of the various nation states involved in the region and their territorial claims and counter-claims.

Hi 4thskorpion:

I agree. If we were to rely solely on Peter K's post of 1-15-16, one gets the impression that Protestants are mainly responsible for the horrors that were visited upon Europe during the term of the the Third Reich based on the below:

Legend to the map posted below:

(...) This map shows the influence of religious conviction on the Nazi vote for the Reichstag election 7/32. Elevation represents the share of Catholics / protestants (the higher, the more Catholics live in a Kreis / county) in relation to total population. The Nazi vote share is represented by different color shadings (dark red: highest NSDAP share; light green: lowest NSDAP share). The map reveals that the NSDAP strongholds are clearly restricted to protestant areas. This becomes very clear e.g. in East Prussia, where in a small catholic enclave the NSDAP performed very poorly in comparison to the surrounding Kreise dominated by protestants. It is also inportant to note that of the 21 Nazi Germans tried as war criminals at Nuremberg 16 indicated they were "Protestant." Lets Look at three of the most distinguished German Protestant theologians--Gerhard Kittel, Paul Althaus, and Emanual Hirsch. These men were highly respected, extremely erudite, uncommonly productive, and internationally known professors, each at a different, first-class university. (...)

And yet how does the above statement square when compared with the data presented below?



Now the events may be seen in a completely different light.

Most of these leaders were in charge of Catholic-majority countries, though.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

And yet how does the above statement square when compared with the data presented below?

As Futurist pointed out, there were hardly any Protestants in most of those countries.

And also Fascist regimes were not Nazi regimes - those were two different ideologies.

There is no doubt for example, that Protestants were much stronger supporters of various doctrines of innate racial superiority and inferiority, which were characteristic of Nazi ideology, but not of Fascist ideologies (e.g. Spanish and Italian fascists did not proclaim racial superiority of their peoples over others - while German Nazis did, but so did also Non-Nazi English and American Protestants of that time).

As for Hitler - he was born to Catholic parents, but he personally did not believe in God.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

the impression that Protestants are mainly responsible for the horrors that were visited upon Europe

Franco and Salazar did not play any important role in horrors of WW2, as their countries remained neutral. As for Laval and Petain - France was an overwhelmingly Catholic country, and was conquered by Nazi Germany. Same goes for Belgium, Croatia, Bohemia-Moravia and Slovakia, all of which were overwhelmingly Catholic countries in which trying to find a Protestant to collaborate with German occupants, would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, as those countries simply didn't have any Protestants, or had relatively very few of them.

By the way, that list is also very selective. For example, Miklos Horthy - the leader of Axis Hungary - was a Protestant:

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Mik ... yai-Horthy

So why didn't that list mention Horthy, but did mention Salazar and Franco, both of whom played no role in WW2 ???

Anyway, the map I posted was not about leaders, but about "commoners" - about normal German voters, citizens.

In Germany, some of high-ranking Nazis were indeed Catholics, but most of their "average Joe" supporters were not.

[Futurist]

And also Fascist regimes were not Nazi regimes - those were two different ideologies.

Frankly, it depends on how exactly one defines "Fascist" here. For instance, was Portuguese dictator Salazar (who, as far as I know, while officially neutral in World War II, titled towards the Allies) a Fascist?

[Futurist]

the impression that Protestants are mainly responsible for the horrors that were visited upon Europe

Franco and Salazar did not play any important role in horrors of WW2, as their countries remained neutral. As for Laval and Petain - France was an overwhelmingly Catholic country, and was conquered by Nazi Germany. Same goes for Belgium, Croatia, Bohemia-Moravia and Slovakia, all of which were overwhelmingly Catholic countries in which trying to find a Protestant to collaborate with German occupants, would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, as those countries simply didn't have any Protestants, or had relatively very few of them.

By the way, that list is also very selective. For example, Miklos Horthy - the leader of Axis Hungary - was a Protestant:

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Mik ... yai-Horthy

So why didn't that list mention Horthy, but did mention Salazar and Franco, both of whom played no role in WW2 ???

Anyway, the map I posted was not about leaders, but about "commoners" - about normal German voters, citizens.

In Germany, some of high-ranking Nazis were indeed Catholics, but most of their "average Joe" supporters were not.

Also, Ion Antonescu, the Romanian dictator who was responsible for the deaths of between 280,000 and 380,000 Jews during the Holocaust, was Romanian Orthodox--not Catholic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Antonescu

[4thskorpion]

These are all rather nebulous definitions but regardless of that how does the variously unreliable datasets address the 1933 proposal to resolve the Polish corridor dispute?

[gebhk]

Can you clarify what needs addressing?

[4thskorpion]

Can you clarify what needs addressing?

A 1933 proposal to resolve the Polish Corridor dispute?

[Gorque]

So, 4thskorpion, your main point is that all humans are one big closely related family ??? Or what ???

No Peter, my main point is that the datasets make for colourful graphics and demographic maps but cannot be considered free of political manipulation or falsification given the politics of the various nation states involved in the region and their territorial claims and counter-claims.

Hi 4thskorpion:

I agree. If we were to rely solely on Peter K's post of 1-15-16, one gets the impression that Protestants are mainly responsible for the horrors that were visited upon Europe during the term of the the Third Reich based on the below:

Legend to the map posted below:

(...) This map shows the influence of religious conviction on the Nazi vote for the Reichstag election 7/32. Elevation represents the share of Catholics / protestants (the higher, the more Catholics live in a Kreis / county) in relation to total population. The Nazi vote share is represented by different color shadings (dark red: highest NSDAP share; light green: lowest NSDAP share). The map reveals that the NSDAP strongholds are clearly restricted to protestant areas. This becomes very clear e.g. in East Prussia, where in a small catholic enclave the NSDAP performed very poorly in comparison to the surrounding Kreise dominated by protestants. It is also inportant to note that of the 21 Nazi Germans tried as war criminals at Nuremberg 16 indicated they were "Protestant." Lets Look at three of the most distinguished German Protestant theologians--Gerhard Kittel, Paul Althaus, and Emanual Hirsch. These men were highly respected, extremely erudite, uncommonly productive, and internationally known professors, each at a different, first-class university. (...)

And yet how does the above statement square when compared with the data presented below?



Now the events may be seen in a completely different light.

Most of these leaders were in charge of Catholic-majority countries, though.

That's my point, unless one scrutinizes the data-set underlying the assumption, one may be misled. In the case of 1932 Germany, Protestants outnumbered Catholics 2 to 1 and by and large Catholics, for the most part, tended to vote for the Center Party throughout the short history of the Weimar Republic. The elections results for the national assembly show the Center Party consistently polling around 4 million.

[Gorque]

And yet how does the above statement square when compared with the data presented below?

And also Fascist regimes were not Nazi regimes - those were two different ideologies.

And yet many, but not all, of these "Fascist" regimes willingly participated in the genocides, some willingly.

As for Hitler - he was born to Catholic parents, but he personally did not believe in God.

His mother was very religious and raised him as a Catholic.

[Gorque]

And yet how does the above statement square when compared with the data presented below?

There is no doubt for example, that Protestants were much stronger supporters of various doctrines of innate racial superiority and inferiority, which were characteristic of Nazi ideology, but not of Fascist ideologies (e.g. Spanish and Italian fascists did not proclaim racial superiority of their peoples over others - while German Nazis did, but so did also Non-Nazi English and American Protestants of that time).

That's a pretty strong statement! Perhaps you have some scientific article that can support your premise. I found this article which links to an abstract:

The purpose of the study is to be "a meta-analytic review of past research evaluated the link between religiosity and racism in the United States since the Civil Rights Act." The report observed that "members of religious congregations tend to harbor prejudiced views of other races." The study surveyed over 20,000 white Christians, citing their role as the largest demographic, both in terms of race and religious denomination, in the United States.

.....

The study reported that "highly devout groups showed the greatest correlation between religion and racism." In my opinion, an affirmation of specific morality comes from John 14:6 - “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

More devout and strict adherents would likely hold that the "correct" morality is limited to their religion, thus increasing the exclusivity of the group's membership. However, all throughout history examples of the existence of the morality and ethics echoed in the New Testament can be found in instances completely uninfluenced by Christian teachings; such as Native American tribes, Buddhist and other eastern traditions, and even in numerous Pagan theologies. The USC article bolsters this relationship between devoutness and racism citing that "her analysis found significantly less racism among people without strong religious beliefs."

http://mic.com/articles/29397/religious ... tudy-finds