Peter K wrote:In Germany, some of high-ranking Nazis were indeed Catholics, but most of their "average Joe" supporters were not.
There will be a Jewish problem as long as the Jews remain...It is an actual fact that the Jews fight against the Catholic church, they are free-thinkers, and constitute the vanguard of atheism, bolshevism and revolution. It is true that the Jews are committing frauds, practicing usury, and dealing in white slavery. It is also true that in the schools the Jewish youth is having an evil influence, from an ethical and religious point of view, on the Catholic youth.
But let us be just. One does well to avoid Jewish shops and Jewish stalls in the markets, but it is not permitted to demolish Jewish businesses. One should protect oneself against the influence of Jewish morals. But it is inadmissible to assault, hit or injure Jews. In a Jew you should also respect and love a human being and your neighbor.
This shows how some part of the Guest population (= Jews) behaved towards the Host population (= Poles), few centuries after taking refuge in Poland, where they had escaped from religious persecutions in Western Europe.Mark Paul wrote:(...) An article in the June 1918 Yiddish daily Letzte Naies expressed surprise that Poles would even ask Jews for support [in regaining independence], since they would not grant Jews rights as a full-fledged separate nationality. The article argued that Jewish culture is older and more advanced than Polish culture, and the moral development of Poles is on the same level as that of the Hottentots [= the Bushmen (link)]. (...)
That is from 2013, which means that it perhaps uses the word "racism" as an umbrella term for "anything unpleasant".Gorque wrote:I found this article which links to an abstract:
http://mic.com/articles/29397/religious ... tudy-finds
And see here how the term 'racist' is used today by 'anti-racists' to foster prejudice against former victims of racism:Racism--an unpleasant-sounding word that stands for something nasty--is one of the most emotive words in contemporary speech. Unfortunately, it has also become one of the most overused words in the English language, and as a result, it has largely been emptied of its original meaning. The word has been stuffed so full of spurious ideas as to lose the specific meaning it once possessed. But the original meaning, or meanings, of racism still coexist to some extent with the newer ones, and it is the former that gives racism the emotional charge it still has. (...)
Mark Paul is on the Polish ethno nationalist right and that is the foundation of his historical agenda.Peter K wrote:Gorque, it is not like the Jews were totally free from Anti-Polish or Anti-Catholic sentiments either. For instance, historian Mark Paul has described many examples of such sentiments. One such example is quoted below:
This shows how some part of the Guest population (= Jews) behaved towards the Host population (= Poles), few centuries after taking refuge in Poland, where they had escaped from religious persecutions in Western Europe.Mark Paul wrote:(...) An article in the June 1918 Yiddish daily Letzte Naies expressed surprise that Poles would even ask Jews for support [in regaining independence], since they would not grant Jews rights as a full-fledged separate nationality. The article argued that Jewish culture is older and more advanced than Polish culture, and the moral development of Poles is on the same level as that of the Hottentots [= the Bushmen (link)]. (...)
But there were also a lot of Jews and Poles who made all efforts trying to create an atmosphere of mutually respectful coexistence.
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The letter by Hlond shows, that Catholic (in this case Polish) Anti-Jewish sentiment, was not racially motivated. This is what I wrote, Anti-Semitism in various forms and shapes has existed in Europe already from Roman times onwards. But the ones who created race-based theories about Jews, were so called "scientific racists" of the 1800s-1900s, generally not Christians, especially not Catholics.
Is he ??? To be honest, I didn't even know that he is Polish at all (his surname definitely does not suggest Polish roots). By the way:4thskorpion wrote:Mark Paul is on the Polish ethno nationalist right
Are you suggesting, that the information quoted in my previous post (from Mark Paul's publication) is false?4thskorpion wrote:and that is the foundation of his historical agenda.
Is this a miracle, or just a return back to historical normality?“There is a miracle going on in Poland; Jewish life is thriving, and it’s easier, safer and better to be Jewish every day in Poland than anywhere else in Europe”, Jonathan Ornstein, the director of the Jewish Community Center of Krakow, told participants in a conference marking the 25th anniversary of the renewal of diplomatic relations between Poland and Israel.
The American-born Ornstein is a triple national, who made aliya from New York in 1994, lived for seven years on kibbutz, spent two years in an IDF combat unit, then moved to Poland in 2001. With the opening of the JCC in 2008, he became its director.
“Jewish life in Poland is thriving in a way that you won’t see anywhere else in Europe,” he said, commenting that although Poland is often seen as a place of tragedy, “there has been an amazing rebirth of Jewish life.”
A proposal was made which was never going to fly, in some measaure due to the reasons already described, but prinicpally because losing income from transit taxes would have blown an unsustainable hole in the Polish budget (it is estimated the taxes made up to 15% of the total tax income). Given that in 1933 Poland was only just beginning to see the first shoots of economical recovery from the great depression, the only response to these proposals from Poland would have been 'over my dead body' and everyone who knew anything of the situation would have been aware of that. One has to question, therefore, whether these proposals were in any sense a serious if deluded proposition..... or just the usual blowing of political smoke.4thskorpion wrote:A 1933 proposal to resolve the Polish Corridor dispute?gebhk wrote:Can you clarify what needs addressing?
See: Mark Paul and Polish Educational Foundation in North America (Toronto & Chicago)Peter K wrote:Is he ??? To be honest, I didn't even know that he is Polish at all (his surname definitely does not suggest Polish roots).4thskorpion wrote:Mark Paul is on the Polish ethno nationalist right
Peter K, recommended this book which I do not have:gebhk wrote:A proposal was made which was never going to fly, in some measaure due to the reasons already described, but prinicpally because losing income from transit taxes would have blown an unsustainable hole in the Polish budget (it is estimated the taxes made up to 15% of the total tax income). Given that in 1933 Poland was only just beginning to see the first shoots of economical recovery from the great depression, the only response to these proposals from Poland would have been 'over my dead body' and everyone who knew anything of the situation would have been aware of that. One has to question, therefore, whether these proposals were in any sense a serious if deluded proposition..... or just the usual blowing of political smoke.4thskorpion wrote:A 1933 proposal to resolve the Polish Corridor dispute?gebhk wrote:Can you clarify what needs addressing?
That pretty much covers it I think, unless you feel there are some potential benefits that could have been gained if things hadn't been as they were? If so you need to present them.
Best wishes
K
Did they really read that from pulpits across Poland? It was so long and boring letter I'm sure everybody was firmly at sleep before they reached the few sentences dedicated to the Jewish question. There were tucked at the end, if I'm not mistaken.Gorque wrote:Lets take a look at a pastoral letter that rationalized antisemitism by Cardinal August Hlond on February 29, 1936 which was read from pulpits across Poland.
The Germans were only too happy to oblige.Given that in 1933 Poland was only just beginning to see the first shoots of economical recovery from the great depression, the only response to these proposals from Poland would have been 'over my dead body'
And now please see here what the "chief Jew" of Poland produces and sells, and marvel at the extent of freedom of expression available in this country. But be warned, what you'll see there can't be unseen...4thskorpion wrote:As for Jews in today's Poland...when the PiS minister of defence thinks the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are probably genuine, one wonders!
wm wrote:Did they really read that from pulpits across Poland? It was so long and boring letter I'm sure everybody was firmly at sleep before they reached the few sentences dedicated to the Jewish question. There were tucked at the end, if I'm not mistaken.Gorque wrote:Lets take a look at a pastoral letter that rationalized antisemitism by Cardinal August Hlond on February 29, 1936 which was read from pulpits across Poland.
It wasn't like Mr Hlond waked up someday and declared a war against the Jews. The letter generally wasn't about the Jews.
Firstly, the conflict in Poland (basically between the entrenched Jewish middle class and the new ascending Polish middle class) was a real one not made up like that in Germany.
The Polish Jews monopolized most of the economy, and many of the best jobs like doctors, lawyers, accountants were in Jewish hands. And in the impoverished pre-war Poland opportunities were very limited for everybody.
His Eminency wasn't responsible for all that, and it wasn't in his power to do anything about it. He didn't declare anything - the conflict, one of the many in pre-war Poland, had been going on already , had to be fought out, and brought to some logical conclusion.
I'm of the opinion that his main point was to denote that Jews were a distinct, untrustworthy and detrimental minority within Poland and that despite the above, no actions that employed violence should be used, however non-violent actions are permissable.Secondly, his main point is actually "no violence". In the interwar Europe lots of people/groups/parties saw nothing wrong in violence, even in Poland it was a popular pastime. It easily could have become much more popular if not for people like his Eminency. Poland wasn't some kind of Mizzo, in those years people were dying in political clashes all the time.
After that letter the frequency of "no violence" in the nationalistic press and publications is astonishing. The didn't have to repeat that over and over again but they did - they headed the warning.
This really can't be overestimated.
Once again, I'll defer to authority, as there is a high amount of agreement that the object of that portion of his pastoral letter was directed towards the Jews of Poland.Thirdly, there was no "the Jews" in that letter, the Polish word used is ambiguous it can be the Jews, Jews, some Jews.
It wasn't "the Jews" because it would be against the doctrines of the Catholic Church (the human race, the entire human race, is a single, large, universal human race. The expression human race denotes, precisely, the human race) and the teaching of the then Pope Pius XI (Anti-Semitism is a hateful movement; We Christians must have nothing to do with it.... Anti-Semitism is inadmissible. Spiritually we are all Semites)
I strongly disagree.All the problems raised in that letter, although secondary in importance were actually valid ones. The white slavery, frauds were serious problems, the Polish liberal elites - largely Jewish were a potent adversary to the Catholic Church and everything it stood for. And the Church was slowly losing that battle.
But still it is obvious his Eminency was conceding these points for the sake of argument, one of those common argument tactics, the main point was: in a Jew you should also respect and love a human being and your neighbor.
