Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#31

Post by Futurist » 14 Oct 2016, 22:45

michael mills wrote:By the way, the German proposal for an extraterritorial link to East Prussia was nothing new; throughout the period of the Polish-German détente after January 1934 the German side had been making various proposals for such a link, including Todt's suggestion of an elevated highway that would allow free Polish access underneath it. Neither Beck nor other members of the Sanacja regime had ever got hot under the collar about those proposals.
By "elevated highway," do you mean like the ones here? :

http://previews.123rf.com/images/josiep ... -Photo.jpg

If so, I wonder why exactly Germany didn't bother making such proposals as early as the Weimar era; after all, surely this might have been a decent, workable way to solve the Polish Corridor problem. :)

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#32

Post by wm » 14 Oct 2016, 23:48

michael mills wrote:The point is that once Beck and his Chef de Cabinet Lubienski had gone into exile, their main concern was to cast a veil over the fact that they had been involved in an attempt to solve the Danzig issue by not opposing a unilateral declaration of reunification with Germany. In order to save their reputations they had to give the impression that they had been prepared to resist Germany to the end.
Please, we shouldn't scry so blatantly here. That isn't supported by any facts.

You've said himself many times that Hitler was friendly and non-pushy during the negotiations. One might add the main subject of those talks wasn't Danzig or the corridor. Those were usually innocently mentioned only in passing, at the end.
It's true that the pre-Hitler Germany was planning to regain lost territories, but they always added "by peaceful means". It wasn't a threat it was a nuisance. Hitler never mentioned even that.

Beck famously claimed he said to his secretary (Lubienski) "it means war" after the meeting with Hitler in January, but Lubienski (who was there with Beck) actually writes it wasn't true. In fact after the official meeting both Hitler and Beck amicably discussed art and architecture sipping tea.

So really there was no reason to do anything, especially that Ribbentrop was going to arrive a week later for more talks. The narration that Beck got scared and handed over Danzig to Hiter is not only false, but highly illogical too.

And really Beck couldn't hand over Danzig because it wasn't his. It was Śmigły who ran the show and he was known for public statements like "we would fight even if alone".


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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#33

Post by michael mills » 15 Oct 2016, 02:58

That isn't supported by any facts.
How do we know what the facts really were? Can we simply accept the version of events given by Beck and Lubienski after they had fled Poland?

Bear in mind that Beck and Lubienski were part of a government that had brought disaster on Poland by getting into an unnecessary war with Germany, and they had every incentive to try to justify their actions, even by bending the truth a little.
And really Beck couldn't hand over Danzig because it wasn't his.
Correct. It did not belong to Poland, but was under the guardianship of the League of Nations. All he would have been able to do would have been to reach agreement with Hitler that Poland would not oppose the reunification of Danzig with Germany by some legal means. But he knew very well that if he reached such an agreement, there could well be an uprising against the Sanacja Government by its opponents, or at the very least he himself would be overthrown.

That is why he sent the suggestion to Moltke that if Germany simply seized Danzig and declared unilateral reunification, there would be no armed opposition by Poland, even though it might protest verbally.

Actually, in November 1938, after Poland had renewed its Declaration of Non-Aggression with the Soviet Union, Hitler had ordered the Wehrmacht to prepare a plan for a military occupation of both Danzig and Memel. Even after he had ordered in early April the preparation of a plan for the full-scale invasion of Poland, he stated that the plan for the occupation of Danzig alone should remain in force, showing that he was still keeping his options open, and thought that it might be possible to break the impasse over Danzig without an invasion of Poland itself, or with only a limited one.

It is significant that even in late August 1939, when German action against Poland was expected at any moment, the Polish political and military leaders thought that Germany might seek to occupy only Danzig and the Corridor. That is why, contrary to British advice, such large Polish forces were kept near Danzig and in the Corridor, where they were easily cut off and crushed.
It was Śmigły who ran the show and he was known for public statements like "we would fight even if alone".
Smigly was a big talker. That sort of statement is part of the "heroic" version of Polish patriotic history, according to which the brave Poles were always ready to fight alone against impossible odds, no matter what the cost, unlike those cowardly Czechs.

However, it appears that today there are Poles who are starting to question that "heroic" version. For example, when I visited Poland for the second time in August this year, our guide more than once expressed to us her view that the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 had been a foolish mistake, undertaken purely for reasons of pride, and that its sole result had been to cause tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths of Polish civilians, deaths that could have been avoided. As part of our tour we visited the Museum of the Uprising in Warsaw, and afterward she told me that she thought it presented an overly glorified interpretation of what was really a great tragedy.

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#34

Post by michael mills » 15 Oct 2016, 03:04

By "elevated highway," do you mean like the ones here? :
That was the suggestion made by Todt.

Perhaps the various Weimar governments should have taken up the proposal and put it to Poland. I do not know why they did not; perhaps it was because all the German Governments before 1933 insisted that the only solution was for Poland to agree to return all former German territory.

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#35

Post by wm » 15 Oct 2016, 10:27

The Weimar Germans didn't need any highway as they didn't have any cars (one per 2000 people were produced in 1932, and many exported), they mostly used bicycles and horse carts. You wouldn't be able to make to the other side on a bicycle, and horses could have catched cold on a elevated highway :) .
Well, even the Hitlerian Germans didn't really have many cars either. Amateur films made by Germans at that time show their autobahns mostly empty.

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#36

Post by wm » 15 Oct 2016, 14:59

michael mills wrote:How do we know what the facts really were? Can we simply accept the version of events given by Beck and Lubienski after they had fled Poland?
There were other people with them during that meeting: Lipski, Moltke, Schmidt, Ribbentrop. It seems they didn't remember anything unusual either.

Lubienski wasn't a diplomat, he was a glorified secretary. Actually he even called himself a Beck's servant. Nobody do conspiracies with his own servants.

michael mills wrote:Bear in mind that Beck and Lubienski were part of a government that had brought disaster on Poland by getting into an unnecessary war with Germany, and they had every incentive to try to justify their actions, even by bending the truth a little.
But nobody was saying that it was an unnecessary war, the were saying the country was "ill-prepared" for war. That the ruling clique badly prepared Poland for that war. This is why Beck claimed he knew from the day one the war was imminent.
But his "servant" said he didn't. He didn't? - so bring the noose. This how they thought then. Nobody really doubted that the war was necessary.
michael mills wrote:And really Beck couldn't hand over Danzig because it wasn't his.
I meant it was a "Śmigly's" city. Only he had the power to hand it over.
michael mills wrote:That is why he sent the suggestion to Moltke that if Germany simply seized Danzig and declared unilateral reunification, there would be no armed opposition by Poland, even though it might protest verbally.
Poland intervened in Danzig for much lesser infractions.
michael mills wrote:It is significant that even in late August 1939, when German action against Poland was expected at any moment, the Polish political and military leaders thought that Germany might seek to occupy only Danzig and the Corridor. That is why, contrary to British advice, such large Polish forces were kept near Danzig and in the Corridor, where they were easily cut off and crushed.
The knew it would be crushed, they gave the order to withdraw but it was too late.
michael mills wrote:Smigly was a big talker. That sort of statement is part of the "heroic" version of Polish patriotic history, according to which the brave Poles were always ready to fight alone against impossible odds, no matter what the cost, unlike those cowardly Czechs.
The goal wasn't war but peace, "If you want peace, prepare for war". The thinking was weakness invites abuse, that concessions made war more certain.
michael mills wrote:However, it appears that today there are Poles who are starting to question that "heroic" version.
That is a different story. It was a fog-of-war type mistake. A mistake because they had a choice. In 1939 Poland didn't have any choice.

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#37

Post by michael mills » 16 Oct 2016, 11:20

In 1939 Poland didn't have any choice.
Poland had no choice?

Of course Poland had a choice. It could have chosen not to make an enemy by declining the British offer of a military alliance directed against that country.

As of the date of the first British offer of an alliance, made on 20 March 1939, Germany had made no threats to Poland whatsoever. It had not made any demands on Poland, only requests in the context of a package deal to resolve all outstanding points of conflict between the two countries.

Poland could have chosen to follow the same route as Romania, which was offered the same guarantee by Britain as had been offered to Poland. Romania chose to decline the British offer and instead retain its friendly relations with Germany, which had culminated in the German-Romanian economic agreement only a few days before. If Poland had followed the same course as Romania it would not have been invaded by Germany.

The wisest course that Poland could have followed would have been to agree to the German proposals in regard to Danzig, which involved Danzig's rejoining Germany, with Poland's economic interest in the city being maintained through a free port in the Danzig harbour. Czechoslovakia had had customs-free access to the sea through a free port in the Hamburg harbour, and the same arrangement could have existed in Danzig.

Furthermore, when Germany compelled Lithuania to return the Memelland, it allowed Lithuania to retain a free port in Memel harbour, thereby preserving its access to seaborne trade. The same arrangement could have applied to a Danzig reunited with Germany.

Hitler had always been friendly to Poland, having reversed the hostile attitude to that country of his Weimar predecessors, and his aim was to have it as an ally against the Soviet Union, not to destroy it. His decision to invade it was solely a result of Poland's having adopted a violently hostile attitude toward Germany after receiving the British offer of an alliance, which lulled the Polish leaders into the mistaken belief that in alliance with Britain and France they could wage a successful war against Germany and seize the territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line.

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#38

Post by GregSingh » 17 Oct 2016, 23:59

Well, on September 26, 1938, commenting on Sudetenland issue in Sport Palast, Hitler said:

"I have little more to add. I am grateful to Mr. Chamberlain for his efforts. I have assured him that the German Volk desires nothing but peace. Yet, I have also told him that I cannot retreat behind the lines drawn by our patience. I have assured him further that, and this I repeat here before you, once this issue has been resolved, there will no longer be any further territorial problems for Germany in Europe!"

In March 1939, his big lie was exposed, when German troops entered Prag and remaining Czech territories. It was not Sudetenland.

Guarantee by Britain was not about allowing Poland to take Danzig and territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line, it was not in the original document, so let's stick to facts.

Back then in April 1939, when Hitler laud and clear demanded Danzig during his public speech of April 28, what guarantees Poles had, that situation won't repeat itself and Poland won't be "peacefully" conquered like Czechoslovakia, after agreeing to Hitler's demands?

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#39

Post by pugsville » 18 Oct 2016, 00:53

michael mills wrote:
In 1939 Poland didn't have any choice.
Poland had no choice?

Of course Poland had a choice. It could have chosen not to make an enemy by declining the British offer of a military alliance directed against that country.

As of the date of the first British offer of an alliance, made on 20 March 1939, Germany had made no threats to Poland whatsoever. It had not made any demands on Poland, only requests in the context of a package deal to resolve all outstanding points of conflict between the two countries.

Poland could have chosen to follow the same route as Romania, which was offered the same guarantee by Britain as had been offered to Poland. Romania chose to decline the British offer and instead retain its friendly relations with Germany, which had culminated in the German-Romanian economic agreement only a few days before. If Poland had followed the same course as Romania it would not have been invaded by Germany.

The wisest course that Poland could have followed would have been to agree to the German proposals in regard to Danzig, which involved Danzig's rejoining Germany, with Poland's economic interest in the city being maintained through a free port in the Danzig harbour. Czechoslovakia had had customs-free access to the sea through a free port in the Hamburg harbour, and the same arrangement could have existed in Danzig.

Furthermore, when Germany compelled Lithuania to return the Memelland, it allowed Lithuania to retain a free port in Memel harbour, thereby preserving its access to seaborne trade. The same arrangement could have applied to a Danzig reunited with Germany.

Hitler had always been friendly to Poland, having reversed the hostile attitude to that country of his Weimar predecessors, and his aim was to have it as an ally against the Soviet Union, not to destroy it. His decision to invade it was solely a result of Poland's having adopted a violently hostile attitude toward Germany after receiving the British offer of an alliance, which lulled the Polish leaders into the mistaken belief that in alliance with Britain and France they could wage a successful war against Germany and seize the territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line.
A complete fantasy. Hitler simply could not be trusted. He did not keep agreements.

Hitler's goal of massive living room in the east was only possible by the wholesale destruction of Poland. There was no way of Hitler achieving his main objective without this.Hitler was always a maximalist. He always took everything.

Hitler lied all the time, none of his statements can be taken at face value.

Hitler was nice to all sorts of people before he acted against them, lack of hostile rhetoric prior to 1939 is perfectly in line with Hitler's behaviour, he didnt start the rhetoric till he was readying to move, then what were demands he starts with were normal just the start, meeting his demands just produced demands for more.

Poland would have been extremely foolish to accept any agreement or assurance from Hitler's germany they were completely worthless.

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#40

Post by michael mills » 18 Oct 2016, 11:54

Guarantee by Britain was not about allowing Poland to take Danzig and territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line, it was not in the original document, so let's stick to facts.
I respectfully suggest that you are not acquainted with the full facts in relation to this issue, and of their implications. I suggest you read the text of the Anglo-Polish agreement on military co-operation of 6 April 1939.

That agreement did not only state that Britain would come to the aid of Poland if that country sent its armed forces into action against a DIRECT threat to its independence, such as a military invasion. It also stated that it would come to Poland's aid if that country resisted an INDIRECT threat.

The agreement did not define what an indirect threat was, but the British Government informed the United States Government that it would accept anything that the Polish Government claimed to be an indirect threat to the independence of Poland. It also acknowledged to the United States Government that the guarantee it had given to Poland essentially gave that country the power to decide whether Britain would go to war against Germany.

By June 1939, Chamberlain had openly stated in the Commons that Britain accepted Danzig as vital to the independence of Poland, and therefore any attempt by Germany to take control of it would be regarded as a threat to that independence, and would trigger the action called for in the Guarantee and the Anglo-Polish Agreement. That represented a remarkable turnaround, since Britain had never previously regarded Danzig as vital to Poland, and had even favoured its eventual return to Germany; the difference now was that the Danzig issue provided a plausible casus belli against Germany, much like Belgium in 1914.

To be sure, neither the Guarantee nor the Anglo-Polish Agreement on Military Co-operation said anything about giving German territory to Poland, but that is not the point. The point is that those nationalist forces in Poland that desired westward expansion to the Oder-Neisse Line, essentially the opponents of Pilsudski's regime, saw in the Guarantee and the Agreement the possibility of waging a successful war against Germany that would permit them to achieve that aim.

Westward expansion to the Oder-Neisse Line had long been an ambition of certain Polish nationalist groups, particularly of the National Democrats and other opponents of Pilsudski, although they had not been able to achieve it due to the opposition of the Great Powers. That is why one of the first things Sikorski did when in 1940 he transferred to Britain the seat of the Polish Government-in-Exile headed by him, was to declare the expansion of Poland to the Oder-Neisse Line as a major Polish war aim, and to ask the British Government to endorse that aim. At that time the British Government declined to give that endorsement, since its aim was to eliminate German military and industrial power, not to enhance Poland, a country it did not particularly trust or like.
Back then in April 1939, when Hitler laud and clear demanded Danzig during his public speech of April 28, what guarantees Poles had, that situation won't repeat itself and Poland won't be "peacefully" conquered like Czechoslovakia, after agreeing to Hitler's demands?
Are you aware that 28 April comes after 6 April? I take it you realise that time moves forward, not backward.

Hitler's speech of 28 April 1939, denouncing the German-Polish Declaration of Non-Aggression of January 1934, was made in a completely changed context, where on 6 April Poland had entered into a military agreement with Britain aimed against Germany, as a precursor to a full alliance. If Poland had not accepted Britain's offer of an anti-German alliance, as Romania for example did not, there is no reason to believe that Hitler would have turned against that country, or ordered the preparation of an invasion plan.
Last edited by michael mills on 18 Oct 2016, 12:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#41

Post by michael mills » 18 Oct 2016, 12:12

Hitler's goal of massive living room in the east was only possible by the wholesale destruction of Poland. There was no way of Hitler achieving his main objective without this.Hitler was always a maximalist. He always took everything.
A statement without foundation. Hitler's goal of lebensraum in the East required the destruction of the Soviet Union, not of Poland. All unbiassed historians recognise that Hitler's aim was to have Poland as an ally against the Soviet Union. To be sure, Poland would have been a junior partner in an alliance with Germany, but the reality of the situation was that Poland's backwardness and lack of development would have left a junior partner in any alliance it entered into with a major power.

Poland's geographical situation meant that it would inevitably come under the hegemony of either Germany or the Soviet Union. It chose to make an enemy of Germany, and as a result ended up under the hegemony of the Soviet Union.

Hitler was able to embark on his goal of destroying the Soviet Union without the need to destroy Hungary, Slovakia, Romania or Bulgaria. Both Poland and Yugoslavia would have been part of the anti-Soviet coalition if they had not turned against Germany.

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#42

Post by pugsville » 18 Oct 2016, 15:48

michael mills wrote:
Hitler's goal of massive living room in the east was only possible by the wholesale destruction of Poland. There was no way of Hitler achieving his main objective without this.Hitler was always a maximalist. He always took everything.
A statement without foundation. Hitler's goal of lebensraum in the East required the destruction of the Soviet Union, not of Poland. All unbiassed historians recognise that Hitler's aim was to have Poland as an ally against the Soviet Union. To be sure, Poland would have been a junior partner in an alliance with Germany, but the reality of the situation was that Poland's backwardness and lack of development would have left a junior partner in any alliance it entered into with a major power.

Poland's geographical situation meant that it would inevitably come under the hegemony of either Germany or the Soviet Union. It chose to make an enemy of Germany, and as a result ended up under the hegemony of the Soviet Union.

Hitler was able to embark on his goal of destroying the Soviet Union without the need to destroy Hungary, Slovakia, Romania or Bulgaria. Both Poland and Yugoslavia would have been part of the anti-Soviet coalition if they had not turned against Germany.
Yes anyone who does not agree with you personal fantasies is tremendously biased. However history and logic do not support your claims.

Hungary, Slovakia, Romania or Bulgaria , none of the them lay directly between Germany Reich and the Areas it wished to control.

Why would the Germans once successful accept the extsistnce of Poland? they were going to have extra-terrotial railways? really the third rich was to have some terrible narrow very tenuous connection to it's vital living space across another country? Why would they do that when they could just take it all?

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#43

Post by wm » 19 Oct 2016, 00:12

michael mills wrote:Poland had no choice?

Of course Poland had a choice. It could have chosen not to make an enemy by declining the British offer of a military alliance directed against that country.

As of the date of the first British offer of an alliance, made on 20 March 1939, Germany had made no threats to Poland whatsoever. It had not made any demands on Poland, only requests in the context of a package deal to resolve all outstanding points of conflict between the two countries.

Poland could have chosen to follow the same route as Romania
It wasn't possible for internal political reasons. Mainly because no major or even minor political force in Poland would support it. So the Polish government had only one choice - to resist the demands.
The overriding aim of the Polish state after over a hundred years of foreign occupation was the preservation of national sovereignty at all cost. This meant that no encroachment upon it, reminiscent of the events leading to the partitions, would be tolerated.

Additionally Poland had been trying to become a part (or to create herself) of a credible system of collective defense for twenty years. She was finally offered an opportunity in 1939, it would be madness to refuse.

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#44

Post by wm » 19 Oct 2016, 00:22

michael mills wrote:As of the date of the first British offer of an alliance, made on 20 March 1939, Germany had made no threats to Poland whatsoever.
It wasn't an alliance it was an offer of consultations, made to other countries too including the USSR, Romania. At that point of time the offer meant nothing.

The first threats, after several direct refusals, were made on March, 21 1939, during talks between Lipski and Ribbentrop:
I stated that now, during the settlement of the Czecho-Slovakian question, there was no understanding whatever between us. The Czech issue was already hard enough for the Polish public to swallow, for, despite our disputes with the Czechs, they were after all a Slav people. But in regard to Slovakia the position was far worse. I emphasized our community of race, language and religion, and mentioned the help we had given in their achievement of independence. I pointed out our long frontier with Slovakia. I indicated that the Polish man in the street could not understand why the Reich had assumed the protection of Slovakia, that protection being directed against Poland. I said emphatically that this question was a serious blow to our relations.

M. von Ribbentrop reflected a moment, and then answered that this could be discussed.

I promised to refer to you the suggestion of a conversation between you and the Chancellor. M. von Ribbentrop remarked that I might go to Warsaw during the next few days to talk over this matter. He advised that the talk should not be delayed, lest the Chancellor should come to the conclusion that Poland was rejecting all his offers.
This change of tune, after several direct Polish refusals led to following Beck's statement to his colleagues three day later, at that time the British offer still didn't exist:
As far as the basic line of action is concerned, a straight and clear line has been established with the top factors in the state. We defined with precision the limits of our direct interests, and beyond this line we conduct a normal policy and undertake action dealing with it as with normal current work.
Below this line comes our Polish non possumus. This is clear: we will fight.

Once the matter is put this way, chaos is overcome by a considerable share of calm, and thinking becomes orderly. Where is the line? It is our territory, but not only that.
The line also involves the non-acceptance by our state, regarding the drastic spot that Danzig has always been, of any unilateral suggestion to be imposed on us. And, regardless of what Danzig is worth as an object (in my opinion it may perhaps be worth quite a lot, but this is of no concern at the moment), under the present circumstances it has become a symbol.
This means that, if we join that category of eastern states that allow rules to be dictated to them, then I do not know where the matter will end. That is why it is wiser to go forward to meet the enemy than to wait for him at home. This enemy is a troublesome element, since it seems that he is losing the measure of thinking and acting. He might recover that measure once he encounters determined opposition, which hitherto he has not met with. The mighty have been humble to him, and the weak have capitulated in advance, even at the cost of honour.
Polish Institute of International Affairs, Polish Documents on Foreign Policy. 24 October 1938 – 30 September 1939

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Re: Poland came close to making a concession over Danzig

#45

Post by wm » 19 Oct 2016, 00:29

michael mills wrote:That agreement did not only state that Britain would come to the aid of Poland if that country sent its armed forces into action against a DIRECT threat to its independence, such as a military invasion. It also stated that it would come to Poland's aid if that country resisted an INDIRECT threat.

The agreement did not define what an indirect threat was, but the British Government informed the United States Government that it would accept anything that the Polish Government claimed to be an indirect threat to the independence of Poland. It also acknowledged to the United States Government that the guarantee it had given to Poland essentially gave that country the power to decide whether Britain would go to war against Germany.
The guarantee said: " in the event of any action which clearly threatened Polish independence, and which the Polish Government accordingly considered it vital to resist with their national forces" (the agreement: "clearly threatened the independence".)

The threatened/non-threatened part was clearly to be decided by the British.

michael mills wrote:To be sure, neither the Guarantee nor the Anglo-Polish Agreement on Military Co-operation said anything about giving German territory to Poland, but that is not the point. The point is that those nationalist forces in Poland that desired westward expansion to the Oder-Neisse Line, essentially the opponents of Pilsudski's regime, saw in the Guarantee and the Agreement the possibility of waging a successful war against Germany that would permit them to achieve that aim.
And those dark nationalist forces have not been demonstrated so far :)

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