Memories From The Polish Soviet War

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
gebhk
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Re: Memories From The Polish Soviet War

#61

Post by gebhk » 12 Oct 2013, 12:28

We seem to be straying very far from the original topic. The trouble with our current debate is summarised in one of my favourite films, Kingdom of Heaven (OK, I agree, I am sad). "All have claim. None have claim". What I mean is that the concept of the 'Nation' within its borders is an intellectual aberration (in my view anyway) of the later 19th and most of the 20th centuries and aside from creating a great deal of misery and mayhem, learned polemic (and/or puerile bickering depending on your viewpoint) and a great deal of fairy tale generation, it seems to have little to recommend it. It seems to have divided (and sadly continues to divide) people who for centuries lived in reasonable harmony to the benefit of all. To try to determine now who had the greatest 'rights' to these territories 90 years ago using the same outdated criteria seems unnecessary - we did this once before then and the outcome cannot but be considered woeful for everyone concerned. So let's learn from that, not forgetting also to celebrate what was good on all sides.

To whit in the vein of memories:

My Grandfather having served as a 'company mascot' (long story for another theme) in the Polish Legions, volunteered and joined the Bialystok Rifle Regiment (part of the Lithuanian-Belarussian Division). He was rapidly promoted to rank of corporal and put in charge of a machine gun section in a rifle company. It is perhaps a shame that he never spoke much of his wartime experience. All I know is that during the winter of 1919/20 his company was designated an assault company and they carried out frequent harassing raids, dragging their MGs on sleds, even firing from them at times. According to him, the presence of heavy MGs at the van of the assault often convinced the Soviets that they were facing a much larger unit which encouraged them to flee or surrender.

On one of these raids he was himself ambushed by a bearded Soviet trooper in firing position behind a tree. They fired at each other simultaneously and each man hit his target! Grandads helmet saved his life but he was concussed and knocked unconscious. Imagine his initial horror when he woke from his concussion in the ambulance train and the first face he saw was that of his bearded assailant, who was lying in the bunk next to his! He was shipped to Warsaw and following recovery from his injuries he was assigned to light duties in the Warsaw Garrison. At this time he met my Grandmother, the daughter of an aristocratic family and a direct descendant of one of Poland's kings. She had had all the benefits of of her station in life such a first class education including finishing school for 'ladies of noble birth' while Grandad hadn't even finished school. They were married in 1922, I think, and one can only surmise that only the exigencies of war allowed such a union to happen. Thereafter they were parted only twice, between September 1939 - autumn of 1941 and then for a month in 1982: they died within 30 days of each other.

Thus, for all its horrors and misery, this war also allowed two people of such diverse backgrounds to meet, fall in love and form a bond that lasted over 60 years and survived two wars. Their second child was my mother and therefore indirectly I owe my existence at least in part to that war.

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Annelie
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Re: Memories From The Polish Soviet War

#62

Post by Annelie » 12 Oct 2013, 15:37

thankyou gebhk, for sharing especially the part of your story about
your grandparents.


Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Memories From The Polish Soviet War

#63

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 21 Oct 2013, 10:41

Peter K wrote:One more post regarding Polish-Lithuanian ethnic issues and border conflicts after World War 1.

In 1922 Poland annexed so called Central Lithuania (1920 - 1922) - area with ethnic Polish majority.

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According to German population census of 1916:

A) Districts territories of which entirely became parts of Central Lithuania (Litwa Środkowa) in 1920:

1) City Wilna - 139,247 people in total, including 2,662 Lithuanians (1,9%) and 74,221 Poles (53,3%)
2) District Wilna - 74,700 people in total, including 2,713 Lithuanians (3,6%) and 68,136 Poles (91,1%)

B) Districts territories of which partially became parts of Central Lithuania (Litwa Środkowa) in 1920:

3) District Neuschwintzen - 91,689 people, including 25,259 Lithuanians (27,5%) and 55,971 Poles (61,0%)
4) District Schirwindt - 62,262 people, including 13,539 Lithuanians (21,7%) and 45,338 Poles (72,8%)
5) District Mulau - 30,159 people, including 13,087 Lithuanians (43,4%) and 14,587 Poles (48,4%)
6) District Koschedary - 61,440 people, including 29,033 Lithuanians (47,3%) and 27,441 Poles (44,7%)

All in all in these 6 districts according to 1916 German population census there were:

459,497 people, including 86,293 Lithuanians (18,8%) and 285,694 Poles (62,2%).


Not entire area of these 6 districts was incorporated to Central Lithuania.

In total the Republic of Central Lithuania had around 400,000 inhabitants as of 1920.

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There was also significant Polish population in what became independent Lithuanian state (with capital in Kaunas) after WW1:

City Kaunas - ethnic Poles were 34,5% of all inhabitants according to 1916 census

Liaudė region (Lauda region / Laudanian region) - ethnic Poles were 55% of its inhabitants according to 1916 census

Results of elections to city council in Kaunas in 1918:

Out of 71 members of city council elected, 30 were Poles, 22 were Jews, 12 were Lithuanians, 6 were Germans and 1 was Russian.

42% votes in 1918 city council elections in Kaunas were votes for the Polish list.

Also mayor of Kaunas elected in 1918 was an ethnic Polish person.

In 1923 city council elections in Kaunas once again a large part - 31,5% - of votes were for the Polish list.

Those results of city council elections were in stark contrast to official Lithuanian population census of 1923, according to which Poles in Kaunas were only 4,6% of inhabitants. They were also in contrast to German census of 1916 (according to which Poles were 34,5% of population in Kaunas). But German 1916 census (34,5% Poles in Kaunas) was in agreement with results of city council elections (votes for Polish lists: 42% in 1918, 31,5% in 1923).

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According to official population census of 1923, minorities of the Republic of Lithuania included:

- 65,700 Poles (3,2% of country's population)
- 153,600 Jews
- 29,300 Germans

According to Polish data of that time (estimations based on German 1916 census and results of elections):

- 202,000 Poles (9,9% of country's population)
- 181,800 Jews
- 44,500 Germans

Official Lithuanian population census of 1923 understated population size of these 3 minority groups.

Number of Polish minority was understated 3-times, of German minority 1,5-times and of Jewish minority 1,2 times.

=====================================

Population of Kaunas - capital city of the Republic of Lithuania - basing on 1923 elections results:

Total population: 92,446 people, including:

- ca. 29,427 Jews (31,8%)
- ca. 29,104 Poles (31,5%)
- ca. 27,669 Lithuanians (29,9%)
- ca. 4,164 Germans (4,5%)
- ca. 2,082 Russians (2,3%)

Source:

Polish estimation "Statystyka narodowościowa Litwy Kowieńskiej na podstawie danych głosowania do Sejmów. Opracowana według urzędowych danych statystyki wyborczej przez Centralny Polski Komitet Wyborczy" published in 1926.

=================================

Poles were more numerous than Lithuanians also in some rural areas of the Republic of Lithuania:

Kaunas County - in 5 communes of this county, Poles were majority:

Lapes - 4144 Poles, 138 Lithuanians
Turzenai - 3445 Poles, 515 Lithuanians
Vandziogala - 5973 Poles, 700 Lithuanians
Babtai - 3807 Poles, 1903 Lithuanians
Jonava - 4115 Poles, 3488 Lithuanians

Trakai-Kaišiadorys County - in 2 communes:

Vievis - 5452 Poles, 855 Lithuanians
Aukstadvaris - 3739 Poles, 3613 Lithuanians

Ukmerge County - in 2 communes:

Giedraiciai - 5788 Poles, 3074 Lithuanians
Sirvintos - 6754 Poles, 1603 Lithuanians

Utena County - in 1 commune:

Joniskis - 4361 Poles, 1717 Lithuanians

Zarasai County - in 1 commune:

Smalvos - 1857 Poles, 409 Lithuanians
And here is what deputy of German General Staff in Wilna, von Beckerath, wrote in a letter from 03.01.1917:

"Here in Berlin not only the number but also the political and economic importance of Polish ethnos has been underestimated. Official Russian data, which we found here, and which completely does not meet modern scientific requirements for such a census, is most certainly falsified against the Poles, whose meaningful numerical strength and importance can be seen here on every step with obviousness. Our 1916 census has proven, that the meaning of Poles in Lithuania is incomparably greater, that it was assumed before, it has also proven that Poles are in Lithuania the only element possessing notable political and creative qualifications. If it is possible to rule without them during warfare, then during peacetime ruling without them seems to be not only difficult, but also dangerous, because other nationalities in Lithuania are not capable of providing any serious and constant foothold."

/ Peter
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Memories From The Polish Soviet War

#64

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 07 Feb 2014, 01:18

Ethnic composition of Eastern Poland (Białystok, Lublin, Lwów, Wilno, Nowogródek, Polesie, Wołyń, Tarnopol and Stanisławów Voivodeships - today entire Lublin and parts of Białystok & Lwów Voivodeships are still in Poland) in 1931:

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... &mode=view
Polacy Kresy D.png
There are of course disputes whether Poleshuks and Ruthenians should be counted as separate groups or rather as part of Belarussians and part of Ukrainians respectively. The policy of the Polish government in 1931 was to count them separately. It seems that Germans in their censuses had been using similar policies to divide Poles, Kashubs, Mazurs, Silesians, etc. before.

=====================================

Here links to more of similar maps:

Poles in part of Eastern Poland which is now Lithuania:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... nej-litwy/

Poles in part of Eastern Poland which is now Belarus:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... bialorusi/

Poles in part of Eastern Poland which is now Ukraine:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... h-ukrainy/

Poles in pre-war Lithuania, pre-war Latvia and pre-war Soviet Republics of Belarus and Ukraine:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... ch-ogolem/
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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