Polish cavalry.

[Musashi]

I would not call it a military uniform at all - at least in the Polish army in WWII. It looks more like some WWI uniforms or even non-military clothing.

"A man dressed up as a Cossack" came first to my mind. It looks more as a fancy dress than a military uniform from 20 century.

[Halibutt]

I would not call it a military uniform at all - at least in the Polish army in WWII. It looks more like some WWI uniforms or even non-military clothing.

"A man dressed up as a Cossack" came first to my mind. It looks more as a fancy dress than a military uniform from 20 century.

My bet precisely. 100% not any official Polish unit (unless it was one of the Cossack regiments to cross the lines in 1920 and fight on the Polish side, but judging by the quality of the photo this seems dubious; it doesn't look 1920-ish).
Cheers

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Do you really think that Polish cavalry used as mounted infantry was obsolete?

Polish cavalry was obsolete. Not because of tactics, training or equipment (these were modern), but because:

1) It was too expensive in comparison to it's combat abilities, costs of maintaining it were far too high
2) It operated in brigades, so it was a tactical weapon, useful for delaying enemy forces or raiding his rears, but not much else (contrary to Soviet cavalry which operated in divisions and Corps and was capable of strategic operations)
3) stocks of cav. brigades were almost as big as those of inf. divisions, while their combat strength much smaller

The course of the campaign showed, that larger cavalry units (at least divisions) were more capable of resisting the German war machine. All ad hoc improvised cavalry "divisions" (Anders, Abraham, etc.) performed very well.

Before the modernization of Polish cavalry in mid 1930s it operated in divisions. Shrinking them to brigades was a mistake and reinforcing cavalry with modern weapons (AT, AA, armoured vehicles) could not offset this mistake.

Btw - it was not the Polish army which possesed the largest cavalry forces during the Polish Campaign. The Soviets deployed as many as 13 cavalry divisions for the invasion of Poland (6 in Belarusian and 7 in Ukrainian Fronts).

[laboremus]

The Polish cavalry was a child of its time and it's existence was perfectly justified. As somebody pointed out before - cavalry is a perfect mobile infantry, capable to follow fast-moving armored units for support. It is inexpensive comparing to the mechanized infantry and much less vulnerable when supply lines are severed - it can keep "refueling" itself long after encircled mechanized units had to abandon their machines and become even less capable that regular infantry.
Even tank-crazy Germans admitted that - number of Wehrmacht cavalry divisions trippled during the course of war. Soviet cavalry raids shaked German supply lines in 1942 and 1943 while similar attempts by tank forces ended in catastrophy. Poles just didn't have enough time and probably space to utilize all the advantages of cavalry.
The common myths of Polish cavalry hopelessly and stupidly attacking tanks with sabers were created by Gebbels propaganda when Polish POWs were forced to perform an "attack" which was taken on film and photographs to show the inferiority of enemies of The Reich.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

when Polish POWs were forced to perform an "attack" which was taken on film and photographs to show the inferiority of enemies of The Reich.

Not Polish POWs but German dummies. And the scene comes from "Kampfgeschwader Lutzow" - a very funny movie in which all German tanks are Pz-IV, a Pz-IV is able to sustain a hit from 37mm AT Bofors from 5 metres and German soldiers survive explosions of their own grenades just behind a corner, which are mortal for Polish soldiers.

"Kampfgeschwader Lutzow" - 1940; Luftwaffe destroys Polish Air Force on the ground, 1 IX (bombing scenes were set on at the Malaszewice airfield, when Germans gathered probably all captured bombers from entire Polenfledzug):



"Kampfgeschwader Lutzow" - 1940; famous charge of Polish cavalry:



"Kampfgeschwader Lutzow" - 1940; German forces capture a Polish town:



"Kampfgeschwader Lutzow" - 1940; famous photo often describes in many books as "Polish cavalry in Sochaczew" (btw - the previous scene depicts combats for Sochaczew) also comes from this film, or rather from the set of this film:

Check the 21st - 23rd seconds of this movie and then compare it to the photo linked below:



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 939%29.jpg

"The mystery of the archival photograph from Sochaczew":

http://www.e-sochaczew.pl/sochaczew,taj ... 15879.html

Poles just didn't have enough time and probably space to utilize all the advantages of cavalry.

Yet for example the Polish Wielkopolska and Podolska cavalry brigades (later both brigades formed the Cavalry Operational Group of gen. Roman Abraham) didn't suffer a single defeat during the campaign. Moreover, both cavalry brigades didn't carry out a single defensive operation during the campaign. All combat operations of both cavalry brigades consisted only of offensive actions or breaking through the lines of German encirclement (which is also offensive). Both brigades successfully fought their bloody path through the Kampinoskie Forests to Warsaw after the battle of Bzura and inflicted serious losses to units blocking their way (1. Lei.Div. / 29. Mot.Div.). Despite terrible conditions of medical service and supply shortages, both brigades evacuated many of their WIA up to Warsaw. When reaching the outskrits of Warsaw, both brigades numbered roughly 50% of their initial manpower strength (of course wounded are not included into manpower strength) and almost 90% of initial amount of artillery and AT guns.

Personally I think that Wielkopolska and Podolska cavalry brigades were - apart from Nowogrodzka and Wolynska brigades - the best performing Polish cavalry brigades during the 1939 campaign. However, I'm sure that many other brigades would also perform that well, if not the fact that they found themselves in extremely difficult situations. Some brigades fought much longer than these two, but mainly because they were under lighter enemy pressure.

[eppanzer]

Cavalry Brigades were ordered for flangs guard and were faced to Panzer Divisions and other big tanks and motorised units. Nothing else couldn't stand against Panzer Division, to stop it for a while (or a day) and to make good retreat.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Infantry divisions could stand against them too (they were bigger than cavalry brigades, had more soldiers, field guns, AT means, greater combat strength), but had major problems with retreat. Cavalry was better for delaying combats.

[eppanzer]

Infantry divisions could stand against them too (they were bigger than cavalry brigades, had more soldiers, field guns, AT means, greater combat strength), but had major problems with retreat. Cavalry was better for delaying combats.

Bigger and better shaped Infantry Divisions were limited in number and had open flangs. So Polish Cavalry did the best delaying Panzer Divisions advance on the flangs and helping ID to go to the next defence position.

[Igor Igor]

I think the plot thickens. I believe the fog of war has clouded family history (Or ashamed) I think now he may have fought for German Waffen SS Cossack as Germans promised them Ukrainian freedom from Red army (And right to have chuch that Cossack fiercly defend) He may have ended up in Yugoslavia at end of War and sent back to Red Army.

Overall he was defending Ukraine , and as a Ukrainian Ukraine is defended by any means.

[Igor Igor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastun

I think this is more interesting evidence especially the uniform.

The one thing I have learned from this exercise is how war affects generations. My grandmother never smiles, is always angry, my father is the same, and due to the abuse I got from him, I am the same.

War is not a game. It damages the future. Lay down arms and share through reasoned respect for fellow men.

[laboremus]

I think this is more interesting evidence especially the uniform

This is an example of Kuban Cossacks uniform. There were few Cossack "Armies" which were determined by the where they lived, with most known Kuban, Don and Siberia in Russia and Zaporozhia in Ukrain.

[henryk]

A successful Polish Cavalry attack against the Red Army in 1939.
The message also has a number of links on Cavalry operations.
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.p ... Post121160
Polish Cavalry Charges in the Second World War
Posted by Andypol

Battle of Husynne - September 24th 1939 - reserve squadron of the 14th Jazlowiec Uhlans Regiment (some 500 sabres), reinforced with an improvised cavalry unit of the police and some remnants of divisional cavalry, was ordered to break through the Soviet infantry surrounding the Polish positions in the village of Husynne. The charge was lead by the mounted Police, and the Soviet forces withdrew in panic. However, soon the attack was stopped by a strong Soviet tank unit. Casualties similar on both sides.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

This is the only reason why cavalry was obsolete:

Comparison of costs of creation, equipment, amortization and maintainance during a 15 years-long period:

1) Cavalry brigade = 167.953.478 PLN
2) Light motorized brigade = 93.944.132 PLN



But I can't tell you how reliable this data is. Were costs of maintaining a cavalry brigade really so high?

Source:

"How horses ate guns, trucks and cars":

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=8 ... ii#p203061

[eppanzer]

I have read this Polish stuff, it is very interesting. But, dear Domen121, how much cars and trucks had Wojsko Polskie in 1926? What about motor vehicles cross-country abilities? What about State level of motorization, maintenance, drivers training? Army motorization - not only money question.

[Delwin]

The calculation is probably correct however you need to invest first in the motorised unit - buy both cars and trucks as well as buy or modernise the guns to tow them. At the same time Polish army were unable to provide enough uniforms or even shoes for the soldiers envisaged for the general mobilization. Level of motorisation in Poland was low- in 1926 was quite moderate as far as i can recall but later the development stopped (mostly due to the crisis but also due to some mistakes of the authorities).