Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940
- Loïc
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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940
hello
c.15th june both were declared open cities, the troops for the initial planned defence of Verdun forming the Groupement Dubuisson that you have found
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2&t=222422
the "Fortified Region" for Metz disbanded in march 1940 didn't cover exclusively the "region" or sector of Metz only, such command should be regarded more as an Fortress Army Corps level command controlling a part of the various Maginot Line Fortified Sectors
many of these Fortified Sectors were like Divisions-size, that is why many authors count and consider them like that, and even some Sectors were converted into march Divisions in june 1940
only a very small part of the soldiers from all these "Fortress" Infantry and Artillery Regiments were really posted in the situation usually represented as the "cliché" of Maginot Line, as military moles in their Fortress underground shelters, but this "cliché" concerned only few regimental attached companies or batteries, certainly not the whole regiment
Regards
Loïc L.
c.15th june both were declared open cities, the troops for the initial planned defence of Verdun forming the Groupement Dubuisson that you have found
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2&t=222422
the "Fortified Region" for Metz disbanded in march 1940 didn't cover exclusively the "region" or sector of Metz only, such command should be regarded more as an Fortress Army Corps level command controlling a part of the various Maginot Line Fortified Sectors
many of these Fortified Sectors were like Divisions-size, that is why many authors count and consider them like that, and even some Sectors were converted into march Divisions in june 1940
only a very small part of the soldiers from all these "Fortress" Infantry and Artillery Regiments were really posted in the situation usually represented as the "cliché" of Maginot Line, as military moles in their Fortress underground shelters, but this "cliché" concerned only few regimental attached companies or batteries, certainly not the whole regiment
Regards
Loïc L.
Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940
Hi, Loic, thank so much for your answer.
I am curious that French Army Group 2 had her own 16 divisions plus eigth SF garrsison and the remnant of 8 divisions from 2nd Army, numbering about over 400,000 men but Guderian Panzer group only had four Panzer divisons and two Motoriized divisions on her back, how can this army Group LOC was being cut off ? If they concentrated on breaking out near Swiss sector, probably can join with Army Group 3 in the South. Any possibility of Petain 's armistice request broke the French morale and led to their collapse ? Fort garrison remained on position until July 2 1940 but field divisons and march divisions mostly were surrendered on or before June 25 1940.
I am curious that French Army Group 2 had her own 16 divisions plus eigth SF garrsison and the remnant of 8 divisions from 2nd Army, numbering about over 400,000 men but Guderian Panzer group only had four Panzer divisons and two Motoriized divisions on her back, how can this army Group LOC was being cut off ? If they concentrated on breaking out near Swiss sector, probably can join with Army Group 3 in the South. Any possibility of Petain 's armistice request broke the French morale and led to their collapse ? Fort garrison remained on position until July 2 1940 but field divisons and march divisions mostly were surrendered on or before June 25 1940.
Re: 7e DI
BTW, Loic, did labour battalion mean sapper battalion ? As I know, labour battalion was not part of French DI in 1940. They only had two sapper companies in this moment. I see some book they were unarmed and also worked for construction works. So 7.DI , apart from two combat battalions left and another all were non combat service troop. ? ThankLoïc wrote:hello
not really...the 102e RI suffering also heavy casualties
5th 6th june : less 8 off. 600 men
7th june : less 3 off. 400 men
10th 11th june : less 19 off. 750 men
14th 15th june : less 4 off. 300 men
18th june : less 300 men
= 34 officers and 2350 men lost minimum
the 93e RI almost all the 3 battalions
the 130e RI not precised, many companies have been captured
the following month the 22th july with all the remnants of the 3 regiments a 130e RI was reorganized with 2 battalions, not including labour battalion(s)
Regards
Loïc
- Loïc
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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940
hello
not at all, the english despite everything as coming from many french-latin words, especially in the military, is not at such point different to translate sappers by labour even for a poor-level in franglish like me
Sappers-Sapeurs, Pionniers-Pioneers, labour or workers for Travailleurs
you are in july 1940, it was no time to reorganize these Divisions saved in southern zone, or more exactly their remnants, on a regular basis or combat units, many units or men are now grouped into provisional Travailleurs units before disbandments waiting individual demobilization for the reservists
the Divisional Artillery of the 7e DI was also converted into 2 Travailleurs d'Artillerie Workers battalions (513 men and 617 men from Ist and IIIrd Group 31e RA) and 6 companies (792 from the 231e) for the same reasons
and the 180 Sappers, Signals or others divisional units disbanded throughout july as the 40e GRDI
while the 130e RI became the 32e RI of the allowed reduced Armistice Army
Regards
Loïc
not at all, the english despite everything as coming from many french-latin words, especially in the military, is not at such point different to translate sappers by labour even for a poor-level in franglish like me
Sappers-Sapeurs, Pionniers-Pioneers, labour or workers for Travailleurs
you are in july 1940, it was no time to reorganize these Divisions saved in southern zone, or more exactly their remnants, on a regular basis or combat units, many units or men are now grouped into provisional Travailleurs units before disbandments waiting individual demobilization for the reservists
the Divisional Artillery of the 7e DI was also converted into 2 Travailleurs d'Artillerie Workers battalions (513 men and 617 men from Ist and IIIrd Group 31e RA) and 6 companies (792 from the 231e) for the same reasons
and the 180 Sappers, Signals or others divisional units disbanded throughout july as the 40e GRDI
while the 130e RI became the 32e RI of the allowed reduced Armistice Army
Regards
Loïc
Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940
Hi, Loic, thank for your post. Very much appreciated.Loïc wrote:hello
not at all, the english despite everything as coming from many french-latin words, especially in the military, is not at such point different to translate sappers by labour even for a poor-level in franglish like me
Sappers-Sapeurs, Pionniers-Pioneers, labour or workers for Travailleurs
you are in july 1940, it was no time to reorganize these Divisions saved in southern zone, or more exactly their remnants, on a regular basis or combat units, many units or men are now grouped into provisional Travailleurs units before disbandments waiting individual demobilization for the reservists
the Divisional Artillery of the 7e DI was also converted into 2 Travailleurs d'Artillerie Workers battalions (513 men and 617 men from Ist and IIIrd Group 31e RA) and 6 companies (792 from the 231e) for the same reasons
and the 180 Sappers, Signals or others divisional units disbanded throughout july as the 40e GRDI
while the 130e RI became the 32e RI of the allowed reduced Armistice Army
Regards
Loïc
Apart from two battalions infantry, 7. DI still had some unit remnant. But you have two divisions mentioned in previous post : about 13.DI only had one battalion left and 28. Alpine Division had 1000-1200 men left. Because of extreme low figure. I guess you only mean infantry only. right ? not the whole division ? Thank.
Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940
Hi, Loic, book " Why France collapsed " mentions status of several divisons on June 25 1940 :
19e and 29e divisions, 87e DIA had two battalions left, 47e DI and 7e DINA had three battalions left, but author does not tell if infantry only, or general size of divisions, your database have some information about that ? Thank.
19e and 29e divisions, 87e DIA had two battalions left, 47e DI and 7e DINA had three battalions left, but author does not tell if infantry only, or general size of divisions, your database have some information about that ? Thank.
- Loïc
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Question about several Divisions june 1940
hello
about my previous post of 29th march, for the 13e DI was reduced as a small battalion-size strenght, not an infantry battalion, no further information (restes de la Division réduits à l'effectif d'un petit bataillon sans armement lourd)
the same for the 28e DIA around 1000 men for the whole division the 9th june including 710 from the 99e RIA and 3 companies for each BCA but as said between the 9th and 25th june the division has suffered others losses, Artillery was reduced to 2 batteries of the 202e, the 3 Alpine Chasseurs Battalions reduced to ~400 men etc...
7e DINA the 10th june few men for the Recce Group, 200 for the 20e RTT, 300 of the 31e RTA, 10e RTM destroyed or captured, 600 men for the 81e RANA, 300 for the 281e RALNA
the whole division 275 officers 5144 men the 12th june
about the 19e 29e 47e DI Gilles Ragache describes them as almost disappeared the 19th june, remnants of the 41e RI for the first,
the 29e has the 34e GRDI with only the horse squadron and 4 platoons, 2000 artillerymen, 100 to 200 sappers and signallers
the 87e DIA keeping 9500 men the 25th june according to Gilles Ragache
Regards
Loïc L.
about my previous post of 29th march, for the 13e DI was reduced as a small battalion-size strenght, not an infantry battalion, no further information (restes de la Division réduits à l'effectif d'un petit bataillon sans armement lourd)
the same for the 28e DIA around 1000 men for the whole division the 9th june including 710 from the 99e RIA and 3 companies for each BCA but as said between the 9th and 25th june the division has suffered others losses, Artillery was reduced to 2 batteries of the 202e, the 3 Alpine Chasseurs Battalions reduced to ~400 men etc...
7e DINA the 10th june few men for the Recce Group, 200 for the 20e RTT, 300 of the 31e RTA, 10e RTM destroyed or captured, 600 men for the 81e RANA, 300 for the 281e RALNA
the whole division 275 officers 5144 men the 12th june
about the 19e 29e 47e DI Gilles Ragache describes them as almost disappeared the 19th june, remnants of the 41e RI for the first,
the 29e has the 34e GRDI with only the horse squadron and 4 platoons, 2000 artillerymen, 100 to 200 sappers and signallers
the 87e DIA keeping 9500 men the 25th june according to Gilles Ragache
Regards
Loïc L.
Re: Question about several Divisions june 1940
Loïc wrote:hello
about my previous post of 29th march, for the 13e DI was reduced as a small battalion-size strenght, not an infantry battalion, no further information (restes de la Division réduits à l'effectif d'un petit bataillon sans armement lourd)
the same for the 28e DIA around 1000 men for the whole division the 9th june including 710 from the 99e RIA and 3 companies for each BCA but as said between the 9th and 25th june the division has suffered others losses, Artillery was reduced to 2 batteries of the 202e, the 3 Alpine Chasseurs Battalions reduced to ~400 men etc...
7e DINA the 10th june few men for the Recce Group, 200 for the 20e RTT, 300 of the 31e RTA, 10e RTM destroyed or captured, 600 men for the 81e RANA, 300 for the 281e RALNA
the whole division 275 officers 5144 men the 12th june
about the 19e 29e 47e DI Gilles Ragache describes them as almost disappeared the 19th june, remnants of the 41e RI for the first,
the 29e has the 34e GRDI with only the horse squadron and 4 platoons, 2000 artillerymen, 100 to 200 sappers and signallers
the 87e DIA keeping 9500 men the 25th june according to Gilles Ragache
Regards
Loïc L.
Hi, Loic, Thank so much for your help, very much appreciated.
Your information you quoted about Gilles Ragache, is it book : " La Fin Da La campagne de France 15-25 Juin 1940 " ?
Is it this book cover the whole status of French individual divisions on Juin 25 1940 ? If it does, I would consider purchasing it. Thank
- Loïc
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Question about several Divisions june 1940
unfortunately no, there are only some figures given for the Divisions concerned by the withdrawal in Central France
Regards
Loïc
Regards
Loïc
Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940
Hi, Loic, very bad. But why 47e DI disappeared as it seemed not to suffer heavy casualties in combat description in " Why France collapsed" , does Gilles book have some details ?
Wiki mentions 16e DI had four battalions left, is it something like 13e DI , it is her whole force at the end of war ?
Thank again
Wiki mentions 16e DI had four battalions left, is it something like 13e DI , it is her whole force at the end of war ?
Thank again
- Loïc
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Question about several Divisions june 1940
it seems that for the 16e DI means a 4-battalions-size
no further «numerical» datas in Gilles Ragache's book who has a chapter by day from 15th to 25th june and several subchapters by geographical sectors giving some details and explanations of the fightings
his title is specially unequivocal
Wednesday 19th june
chapter X - south of Orléans, the collapse of 3 divisions
on the morning generals Frère and Besson noted with dismay that 3 divisions overtaken by german columns had virtually disappeared forming a serious breach on the center of the defence system
the 3 divisions are the 19e 29e 47e having ceased to exist as fighting units
in Historiques Succincts des Grandes Unités Françaises 9th/15th june very important losses : 23e DBCP encircled, half of the 44e RI lost, 5e RA partially destroyed...and it was before the 47e DI reached the Orléanais
Regards
Loïc
no further «numerical» datas in Gilles Ragache's book who has a chapter by day from 15th to 25th june and several subchapters by geographical sectors giving some details and explanations of the fightings
his title is specially unequivocal
Wednesday 19th june
chapter X - south of Orléans, the collapse of 3 divisions
on the morning generals Frère and Besson noted with dismay that 3 divisions overtaken by german columns had virtually disappeared forming a serious breach on the center of the defence system
the 3 divisions are the 19e 29e 47e having ceased to exist as fighting units
in Historiques Succincts des Grandes Unités Françaises 9th/15th june very important losses : 23e DBCP encircled, half of the 44e RI lost, 5e RA partially destroyed...and it was before the 47e DI reached the Orléanais
Regards
Loïc
Re: Question about several Divisions june 1940
Loïc wrote:it seems that for the 16e DI means a 4-battalions-size
no further «numerical» datas in Gilles Ragache's book who has a chapter by day from 15th to 25th june and several subchapters by geographical sectors giving some details and explanations of the fightings
his title is specially unequivocal
Wednesday 19th june
chapter X - south of Orléans, the collapse of 3 divisions
on the morning generals Frère and Besson noted with dismay that 3 divisions overtaken by german columns had virtually disappeared forming a serious breach on the center of the defence system
the 3 divisions are the 19e 29e 47e having ceased to exist as fighting units
in Historiques Succincts des Grandes Unités Françaises 9th/15th june very important losses : 23e DBCP encircled, half of the 44e RI lost, 5e RA partially destroyed...and it was before the 47e DI reached the Orléanais
Regards
Loïc
Hi, Loic, thank again for the 47e DI. I see a book : a history of surrender which has a chaper on collapse of French Army in 1940. It says French army was getting better in Fall Rot as each division was not captured as a whole but its subunits were captured one by one in a series of battle. Its performance was far better than in Fall Gelb. Those three divisons you mentioned at least kept their HQ and staff at the very end of war. 41e and 45e DI were not the lucky one, even divisional HQ and its commanders were captured.
And apart from 3e DCR, I found that almost all DCR and DLM were intact after armistice, of course, lost all their vehicles and tanks.Perhaps motorization was of vital importance to their final withdrawal towards Southern France.
BTW, 23e DI was left 6,000 men, does Gilles book has any details over the status, like how many infantry or artillerist left, or sapper/Signaller ? Thank
- Loïc
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Re: Question about 23e DI
hello
there were not such detailed datas in Gilles Ragache,
for the artillery only 2 groups of 75 and one heavy group
the 23e DI was renforced by the 1st Czechoslovak Infantry Regiment rattached since the 11th june, one of the 2 infantry regiments ready for the aborted 1st Czechoslovak Division
Regards
Loïc
there were not such detailed datas in Gilles Ragache,
for the artillery only 2 groups of 75 and one heavy group
the 23e DI was renforced by the 1st Czechoslovak Infantry Regiment rattached since the 11th june, one of the 2 infantry regiments ready for the aborted 1st Czechoslovak Division
Regards
Loïc
Re: Question about 23e DI
Hi, Loic, thank a lot on your help on 23e DI. Perhaps 23e DI main combat elements was Czech infantry.Loïc wrote:hello
there were not such detailed datas in Gilles Ragache,
for the artillery only 2 groups of 75 and one heavy group
the 23e DI was renforced by the 1st Czechoslovak Infantry Regiment rattached since the 11th june, one of the 2 infantry regiments ready for the aborted 1st Czechoslovak Division
Regards
Loïc
So, by June 25 1940, apart from four divisions from the Army of Alps, only 11e DI, 57e DI, 7e DIC, 8e DIC and 87e DIA and fast troop, 2e DCR and 3e DLC suffered less casualties or had some combat capability.
Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940
Hi, Loic, does Gilles book have some more information, apart from what I have on those divisions below ?
10e DI, 649 men left
41e DI, 1300 men left
44e DI : 2450 men left
20 e DI and 45e DI : dislocated, no more data on their loss
8e DIC : nothing
If you are free sometimes, I hope you can help me on those divisions, thank again.
10e DI, 649 men left
41e DI, 1300 men left
44e DI : 2450 men left
20 e DI and 45e DI : dislocated, no more data on their loss
8e DIC : nothing
If you are free sometimes, I hope you can help me on those divisions, thank again.