Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

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The_Enigma
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Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#1

Post by The_Enigma » 07 May 2012, 13:36

In west Africa, in the Middle East, on Madagascar, and finally during the Torch landings, why did these Vichy French forces fight the allies and in some cases their own countrymen?

I understand that the garrisons/commanders/govenors in some colonies switch sides and supported the Free French, why did the others not?

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#2

Post by michael mills » 08 May 2012, 04:50

Because they were duty-bound as members of the French armed forces to obey the orders of the legal Government of France.

The legal French Government was that headed by Marshal Petain, who had been voted into office by the National Assembly, before it dissolved itself and transferred full executive powers to him.

To be sure, Petain then used those executive powers to abolish the Third Republic and replace it with a new political entity, the French State, which was in effect a dictatorship. Neverthless, he was making legal use of the powers vested in him under the constitution. His abolition of the Third Republic in 1940 was just as legal as De Gaulle's abolition of the Fourth Republic in 1958 and his creation of the Fifth Republic which gave much greater powers to him as president.

The United States recognised the Petain Government, and retained an ambassador at Vichy, Admiral Leahy, until the end of 1942.

Under international law, De Gaulle was a traitor who had instigated a rebellion against the legal Government of France, and all French citizens who followed him were also legally traitors and rebels. Unlike the British Government, the United States Government also regarded De Gaulle as a rebel and an unsavoury character, and preferred to work with the Petain Government, hoping to induce it to rejoin the Allies; that is why it supported Darlan and Giraud in North Africa against De Gaulle.


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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#3

Post by The_Enigma » 08 May 2012, 09:00

They are some intresting thoughts. From the French perspective, they were fighting a civil war?

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waldzee
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#4

Post by waldzee » 08 May 2012, 12:26

Michael Mills,I was going to write a counterpoint until I realised you are jsut being satirical...

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#5

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 May 2012, 12:54

Hi Waldzee,

On this occasion, I would suggest that Michael Mills' post is essentially a statement of fact, rather than satire.

I would only add that, while the Roosevelt administration regarded De Gaulle as a loose cannon, it was reluctantly prepared to accept he had a role, as its grudging acceptance of the December 1941 Free French fait accompli at St. Pierre et Miquelon showed. Despite assuring both the British and Americans that he would not do so, he had seized these Vichy-ruled islands off the Canadian coast, and right under US noses, in December 1941. Unsurprisingly, for a while the USA regarded almost any other Frenchman from the former Vichy camp as potentially a more reliable and co-operative ally.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#6

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 May 2012, 15:02

Indeed - and also...French colonial authorities and their respective military commanders had a greater degree of independent action than, say, a period British possession ;) to defend themselves against attack - or not. And an attack on one was not necessarily regarded as an attack on all...

And this was counterpointed by considerable American diplomatic pressure keeping a lid on reactions in Vichy to events, a Vichy regime that was getting food aid, POL etc. from the Americans... :wink:
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#7

Post by waldzee » 08 May 2012, 16:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Waldzee,

On this occasion, I would suggest that Michael Mills' post is essentially a statement of fact, rather than satire.

I would only add that, while the Roosevelt administration regarded De Gaulle as a loose cannon, it was reluctantly prepared to accept he had a role, as its grudging acceptance of the December 1941 Free French fait accompli at St. Pierre et Miquelon showed. Despite assuring both the British and Americans that he would not do so, he had seized these Vichy-ruled islands off the Canadian coast, and right under US noses, in December 1941. Unsurprisingly, for a while the USA regarded almost any other Frenchman from the former Vichy camp as potentially a more reliable and co-operative ally.

Cheers,

Sid.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
sorry Sid!
that did sound harsh.
St Pierre had its own tough family culture. I met Newfoundlanders years ago who claimed that pre liberation there were / N Gedarmes pas/ sections of the waterfront- & improvised free French ferry services, that the police watched, but dared not intercept.
The island staffed its own navy corvette, & sign up started the morning De Gaulle dropped anchor.


(St Pierre & Miquelon were in a #justified state of revolt# against a govenor that had distroyed the social contract. De Gaulles corvette had to do little more than drop anchor.- edited)
cheers Reg Saretsky
Last edited by waldzee on 09 May 2012, 15:09, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#8

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 08 May 2012, 23:30

To answer the original question from another perspective... because the Germans literally had a gun at the head of the French in Europe. While many of the French government officials may have been willing to sacrifice the remaining safety of their fellow French in Europe, which often included their families, they were not willing to do so without a strong prospect of victory. As the US ambassador Admirial Leahey was told 'If you come with three divisions we will fight you, if you come with twenty we will welcome you'. the point being here is the French were not going to expose themselves to complete conquest by Germany through a weak Allied effort. In 1942 the US and Britain had more than three divisions in battle against Germany, but certainly not yet twenty to fight against Germany for French territory. Hence much of the indecision of the French leaders.

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#9

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 May 2012, 12:32

Hi Carl,

I agree.

Because of Alsace-Lorraine, Petain and Vichy were always more anti-German than anti-British and were awaiting the right moment to recover them.

Vichy had secret plans to either occupy an Atlantic coast port or create a defended perimeter on the Mediterranean coast to receive Allied, preferably US, forces. Its flagship was still called Strasbourg even though the city had been annexed by Germany, it kept regiments originally raised in Alsace-Lorraine in its much reduced army, it had secret mobilization plans, its Deuxieme Bureau was passing intelligence to the British from at least as early as the first half of 1941, etc., etc.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#10

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 09 May 2012, 14:01

Sid... do you have more details on the French plans and the intel item. Or sources? I'd heard fragments about the plans, including a French general who attempted to execute a occupation of Bourdeux in November 1942. More info would be fun :D

Unfortunatly the two books on my shelf 'The Dark Years' and 'Vichy France' have nothing on either item. Stephen Budiansky describes how the Polish code breakers remained in Vichy France post armistice & continued attacking the German codes until 1943, tho he has no details on the overall French effort.

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#11

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 May 2012, 23:09

Hi Carl,

I have more on this from French language sources, which I will try to dig out for you. From memory:

The Vichy French were evading the armistice terms in numerous ways.

They were not allowed secret codes and had to transmit in clear, but they hid one code specifically for a secret mobilization. A secret command centre was prepared in a farm house south of Vichy.

Vichy had been obliged to destroy its mobilization records and abolish the relevant army staff, but its civil census department rebuilt them from scratch. As a result, they planned to triple their standing army of eight divisions to 24. They had sufficient small arms for this.

They hid dozens of field and anti-tank guns, but these were insufficient back a force of 24 divisions.

Their army was not meant to be motorized and had masses of bicycles instead, but in 1940 they secretly transferred thousands of military trucks to civilian transport companies, which could be remobilized on demand.

They hid a small number of tanks in country garages and continued to design new ones.

They built armour kits to quickly convert 200 imported US 6x4 trucks into armoured vehicles.

They fitted secret auxiliary fuel tanks in the rear fuselage of some of their fighters so that they could be evacuated to French North Africa if necessary. (The Germans discovered this).

The Deuxieme Bureau, disguised as an internal police service, watched the Germans across the whole of France closely and told the British of their redployments for the invasion of Russia.

As they weren't allowed anti-tank guns, they developed a sticky bomb to disable tanks. The specifications were reportedly supplied to the British.

The Vichy Army in metroplitan France was divided into two, four-division corps. The western corps was to have attempted any seizure of an Atlantic port. (From memory, I think this may have been La Palisse, because it had deep water.)

I seem to remember that there were two possible sites for a Mediterranean bridgehead, one of which was at Sete and the other nearer the Spanish border.

There were also plans to interdict any German retreat back into the Reich.

However, the most practical Vichy plans were defensive. I attacked, they intended to establish eight divisional redoubts in mountainous area, where mobilized men could assemble and where the terrain would help counteract the shortage of heavy weaponry.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#12

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 11 May 2012, 05:28

Sid... thanks. This is a understudied subject & anything you might make avaialble for sources and facts would be most welcome. Hopefully others will have something to contribute.

Here is a bit of information on the clandestine tank design. Impractical to build it under the armistice, but one is still impressed by the 90mm gun.

http://www.chars-francais.net/new/index ... &Itemid=41
Sid Guttridge wrote:
The Deuxieme Bureau, disguised as an internal police service, watched the Germans across the whole of France closely and told the British of their redployments for the invasion of Russia.

As they weren't allowed anti-tank guns, they developed a sticky bomb to disable tanks. The specifications were reportedly supplied to the British.
Communication between Vichy and Britain is more than a bit obscure.
Sid Guttridge wrote: The Vichy Army in metroplitan France was divided into two, four-division corps. The western corps was to have attempted any seizure of an Atlantic port. (From memory, I think this may have been La Palisse,

I seem to remember that there were two possible sites for a Mediterranean bridgehead, one of which was at Sete and the other nearer the Spanish border. .
IIRC it was the La Palisse site one of the French generals was headed for a day or two after Torch occured.

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#13

Post by murx » 11 May 2012, 10:46

Wasn't it the attack on the French fleet anchored in Mers El Khebir (Operation Catapult) , taking the life of 1250+ French sailors, which turned French citizens into "Anti-British" ? At least Vichy France bombed Gibraltar in retaliation and Operation Torch was mainly carried out by US Forces in order not to further provoke Vichy troops into anti Allied resistance.
Not included in "Catapult" is the seizure of the French submarine "Surcouf" by British forces in Portesmouth during which a French officer was shot and forceful takeover of other French vessels anchored in British harbors. The attack of Mers El Khebir also was used intensively by German propaganda in France. Very interesting is the legal aspect. Although France was under occupation the UK and France were allied and not at war with each other. Mers El Khebir then was not even a war crime but a regular crime of murder similar to all other cases an allied is shooting another allied.

The text on he memorial site of the relatives of Mers-El Khebir fighters quite drastically illustrates the feelings 50 years later How high must have been emotions the day after the attack.

Quote
At 17.55 on board the battlecruiser HMS HOOD, the flagship of admiral Somerville, ´Flag 5´ is hoisted and a few seconds later the ship reels violently when the main guns open fire with a formidable roar. It is the first time her guns have fired in anger since the beginning of WW II, and this devastating fire is directed at allies, at comrades-at-arms with whom she had until recently been going on patrol in the North Atlantic. At 18h12, ´Flag 6´, the order for ´Cease fire´, is hoisted. It had taken a mere seventeen minutes for this one-sided action to complete the tragedy. The British 15 and 16 in. guns have fired on this fleet narrowly confined in the harbour at Mers-el-Kebir and in no position to defend itself in what was not even a battle. From the bridge of the HOOD, a british sailor described what he was seeing as ´shooting fish in a barrel´ ! Another quote from a British source speaks of ´a true butchery´ having taken place in such a short time: more than 1200 French sailors are already dead, either torn to pieces by the salvoes of the 15 in. guns, drowned, slowly asphyxiated in their upturned ship, or victims of the oil they swallow after jumping into the sea. Some are burned to death by steam, others lay wounded in the lower decks, trapped in the darkness created by the deadly smoke of fires. A direct hit causes the explosion of the Bretagne which capsizes the Mogador as she sinks; the Dunkerque and the Provence are hit. The escort ship Rigault de Genouilly will be torpedoed the following day, in violation of the cease fire. The battleship Strasbourg and five destroyers manage to escape and reach Toulon. The Commandant Teste suffers no damage. Three days later, the torpedo planes of the aircraft carrier Ark Royal come back to finish off the task and try to neutralize the Dunkerque, adding a further hundred victims to an already long list. The toll could have been higher still, and the survivors of this massacre are still wondering how they came out of this hell unscathed! And above all, how this unthinkable and unjustifiable deed ever came about..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_ ... K%C3%A9bir

http://www.h-net.org/~diplo/reports/SFH ... _Paper.pdf

http://www.ledrame-merselkebir.fr/drame1en.html?ml=1

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#14

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 May 2012, 13:07

Hi Carl,

Communication with the British was via Switzerland.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#15

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 May 2012, 13:11

Hi Murx,

Yes, Mers el Kebir certainly made the Vichy French anti-British, but they were always fundamentally much more anti-German.

Cheers,

Sid.

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