Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

Discussions on all aspects of France during the Inter-War era and Second World War.
michael mills
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#16

Post by michael mills » 18 May 2012, 00:44

However, the most practical Vichy plans were defensive. I attacked, they intended to establish eight divisional redoubts in mountainous area, where mobilized men could assemble and where the terrain would help counteract the shortage of heavy weaponry.
They cannot have been all that practical since the German forces were able to march into and occupy the remainder of France in November 1942 without any major problems.

The quite fierce resistance by French troops to the Allied landing in Morocco, even if short-lived, does not indicate an over-riding willingness to welcome an Allied invasion, or a plan to do so.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#17

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 May 2012, 19:31

Hi Michael,

The Vichy French (with some individual exceptions) definitely were more anti-German than anti-British, because Alsace-Lorraine was more fundamental to them than their fleet. So they developed the plans described above.

Otherwise, I think your analysis of the redoubts' prospects is probably right, but you use the wrong example.

When the Germans first moved into the Unoccupied Zone on 11 November 1942, the order to deploy into divisional redoubts was given by, I think, the deputy chief of staff, and movements began. However, it was immediately countermanded by his superior and all units returned to barracks before the Germans arrived. The only exception was the commander of the division with its HQ in Montpelier (I forget its number and his name, but he became prominent in Free French forces later). Having ordered his troops to deploy, he set off on a long vehicle ride in radio silence only to find, when he arrived that his troops had all been recalled. So the redoubts were never tested in 1942.

However, the resistance in the former occupied zone, and its military leadership in North Africa, continued to believe in the redoubt model and in 1944 tried to set up liberated areas in Glieres, Vercors and Mont Mouchet. In all cases, despite some French heroics, the Germans were able to overcome them without undue difficulty. These later redoubts were less well armed and munitioned than those planned by Vichy's army, but I suspect that the end result would have been similar in the end if attempted in 1942.

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 18 May 2012, 19:37, edited 1 time in total.


Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#18

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 May 2012, 19:32

Double post.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 18 May 2012, 19:34, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#19

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 May 2012, 19:32

Triple post.

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waldzee
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#20

Post by waldzee » 18 May 2012, 22:00

Carl Schwamberger wrote:Sid... thanks. This is a understudied subject & anything you might make avaialble for sources and facts would be most welcome. Hopefully others will have something to contribute.

Here is a bit of information on the clandestine tank design. Impractical to build it under the armistice, but one is still impressed by the 90mm gun.

http://www.chars-francais.net/new/index ... &Itemid=41
Sid Guttridge wrote:
The Deuxieme Bureau, disguised as an internal police service, watched the Germans across the whole of France closely and told the British of their redployments for the invasion of Russia.

As they weren't allowed anti-tank guns, they developed a sticky bomb to disable tanks. The specifications were reportedly supplied to the British.
Communication between Vichy and Britain is more than a bit obscure.
Sid Guttridge wrote: The Vichy Army in metroplitan France was divided into two, four-division corps. The western corps was to have attempted any seizure of an Atlantic port. (From memory, I think this may have been La Palisse,

I seem to remember that there were two possible sites for a Mediterranean bridgehead, one of which was at Sete and the other nearer the Spanish border. .
IIRC it was the La Palisse site one of the French generals was headed for a day or two after Torch occured.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is Hermann Goring's final interview on the German plan to invade North Africa via Gilbraltar in early 1941.
goring-the-reichsmarschalls-revelations.htm

michael mills
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#21

Post by michael mills » 19 May 2012, 02:43

When the Germans first moved into the Unoccupied Zone on 11 November 1942, the order to deploy into divisional redoubts was given by, I think, the deputy chief of staff, and movements began. However, it was immediately countermanded by his superior and all units returned to barracks before the Germans arrived.
That seems to show a lack of will on the part of the supreme command of the metropolitan French Army to resist the Germans.

On the other, some units of the French Army of North Africa initially resisted the Allied landings quite fiercely.

That seems to indicate that there was no unity of purpose in the French military at then end of 1942. Some parts of it were prepared to resist the Allies, other were prepared to go over to them.

It appears that a willingness to resume fighting the Germans only arose once the Allies had taken control of Morocco and Algeria. A typical phenomenon with a force that is not committed to either side in a conflict; after some hesitation it joins the side that looks most likely to win.

That phenomenon would also explain the lack of resistance to the German occupation of the south of France.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#22

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 May 2012, 13:36

Hi Michael,

There was no unanimity as to how to act on 11 November 1942. The deputy chief-of-staff followed pre-prepared standing orders in the event of a German occupation attempt, but was shortly over ruled. The decision not to resist was a political one taken at the highest level.

There was no sign of any non-compliance within the Armee Nouvelle to the order to go into the redoubts. It was followed everywhere until countermanded. The army would have attempted to fight, if ordered, but the prospects of extended resistance were not good if the action was not accompanied by an Allied landing.

Between 11 and 27 November 1942 the Germans tried to get the Vichy government to integrate its army units into their Mediterranean coastal defence plans, but without success, so the army was disbanded the same day they attempted to take the fleet at Toulon. By then, with the Germans already inside the former Unoccupied Zone, it was no longer possible to pre-empt them by heading for the designated redoubts.

The willingness to fight the Germans was always present in Vichy as the recovery of Alsace-Lorraine was always the central goal of Petain. Therefore, as explained above, plans were prepared for a number of eventualities - including the seizure of an Atlantic port, the holding of a bridgehead on the Mediterranean coast, the holding of divisional redoubts, interdicting any German withdrawal to the Reich. However, right combination of circumstances never arose, largely because the Germans pre-empted them.

Cheers,

Sid.

Kent72903
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#23

Post by Kent72903 » 17 Mar 2013, 00:40

Weren't there requirements in the French Surrender documents that "required" them to defend their colonies and other territories. I know the Vichy French transferred airplanes to the Levant in 1941 and they refuled enroute at Italian and German airbases. And they were offered German ground unit support but declined further help. I would think the Vichy French military in NA were following the orders of their legitimate government. We tend to view, the Free French as the Legitimate government as they were recognized by Britain and they won the war.

HMan
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#24

Post by HMan » 31 Aug 2013, 01:08

Max Hastings in his book "Inferno" claimed that France contributed more to the Axis than the Allies after June '40.
This was because there was more army troops / security forces in Vichy France service than in the Resistance
or Ike's armies.

From reading previous posts, even if true that there was more personal serving Vichy France, it seems an
oversimplification to say that "contributed more to the Axis than the Allies". However, Hastings never gave
a source for this claim. So can anybody speak to the truth of this claim?

Also, Hastings says there was never a French official history(s) of its WWII experiences because that era
of history is too divisive in France. Once again there was no source - so is this a true claim?

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Loïc
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Re: Why did Vichy France fight the allies?

#25

Post by Loïc » 31 Aug 2013, 01:46

A totally condescending vision
The French Army was disbanded in Metropolitan in november 1942 so it is a total nonsense to claim that there were more army troops / security forces in Vichy France service than in the Resistance or Ike's armies because nearly all the the French Army was outside France and under allied command, Pétain losing all the Army and Air forces and Fleet he had since june 1940 :? 8O this author ignores all about the French Army
there were more Maquisards FFI in "Ike's army " than in the security forces, and what about the members of these security forces who were members of the Resistance too, he forgets that of course

He is rewriting History and manipulating figures and facts, chosing to ignore that France was an occupied country by the Axis Germany Italy and Japan, military neutralised initialy, not member of the Axis or some Antikomintern allied, he could explain me where he saw that 100 000 gendarmes policemen and unarmed firemen still in occupied France were more numerous than an half-million to one million of soldiers of the French Army, and perhaps two mobilized when the V-Day comes

the last opinion I don't understand nothing too, the only thing I understand is that he has antifrench feelings or something like that and he doesn't seem to know a lot about France and about French people to write such sentences

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