Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

Discussions on all aspects of France during the Inter-War era and Second World War.
Post Reply
keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#1

Post by keith A » 09 Mar 2014, 19:11

Ben Bella served in the French Army pre-war. I know he was recalled in 1939 and assigned to 141 RIA but which unit was he with during his national service (I believe the 141 was only raised in 1939)? Also does anyone have details of his Croix de Guerre in the 1940 campaign. I know that the stories indicate his shooting down a Stuka but have yet to see this incident confirmed in army records.

I also believe the 141 RIA did see some limited action in 1939-40 but were they involved in any major offensives/battles?

Also he received the Medaille Militaire in 1944 and three or four other citations, can anyone give details?

regards

Keith

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1227
Joined: 14 Jun 2003, 04:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France
Contact:

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#2

Post by Loïc » 10 Mar 2014, 04:09

hello

for the 141e RIA a such regiment wasn't raised in 1939 but re-re-re-created since 1873 and the traditional active regiment of Marseille, becoming a reserve regiment only after WWII so it isn't really curious to see Ben Bella in this same regiment in 1937 and 1939
but as member of the local famous football team Olympique de Marseille he stayed in Marseille after the declaration of war during the Phoney War with an "Anti Aircraft Artillery battery" defending the port and joined his regiment few months after

the 141e RIA was part of the 3e DLI of the CEFS, the third division formed for Norway, but it was still in Brittany the 10th may 1940, the Division was sent to Paris and in Picardy, fought in the battles of Somme-Aisne and defence of the Loire, the regiment lost many men in few weeks

there was an other famous "V.I.P" mobilised in the 141e RIA, our dear lamented President Georges Pompidou (1969-1974) as lieutenant, few years laters in 1962 both became prime ministers of their respectives republics, then presidents

Regards
Loïc


keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#3

Post by keith A » 10 Mar 2014, 09:24

Thanks Loic,

I have seen a photo of him with others of the 141e RIA, possibly as a Sergent in 1940. If he shot down a Stuka it must mean he was either still in DCA unit in May 1940 because any air raids prior to that would presumably be by medium bombers (He111, Ju88, Do215), or that he won it serving in a DCA unit attached to 3e DLI during the Blitzkrieg. I suppose we could get a better idea of the time if we knew when air raids began on Marseilles and what Luftwaffe units were employed. I know he was a good footballer with OM and Chateau Gombert, and later in Algeria with IRB Magnia.

salut,

Keith

keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#4

Post by keith A » 10 Mar 2014, 10:09

....another confusing piece of information. Acording to several obituaries he was a member of the Tabors of 14e RTA in Italy, but I have read he was actually in 5 RTM. He had fallen foul of the authorities in Algeria and therefore was discreetly transferred into a Moroccan regiment to avoid prosecution. I cannot find any mention of 14 RTA in Italy, I believed it was destroyed in 1940 and not reformed until 1948. I also find this odd because I would assume that this would mean Ben Bella was a Goumier who are Moroccan troops not Algerian, and apparently his Arabic was very poor!

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1227
Joined: 14 Jun 2003, 04:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France
Contact:

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#5

Post by Loïc » 10 Mar 2014, 19:33

waou tabor of the 14e RTA in Italy, great, the person who wrote a such sentence didn't know many things about the topic :roll: :lol:
as you saw the 14e RTA wasn't in Italy as it was disbanded in 1940 and to find a "tabor" in a Tirailleurs Regiment and especially in an Algerian it will be a hard work too...
a Tabor, naming a battalion-size unit, ispo facto belongs only to the Moroccan Goums of the French Protectorate or Regulares & Tiradores de Ifni of the Spanish Protectorate

and as he said himself that he was recalled in the 6e RTA during the summer 1943 and then in the 5e RTM


Regards
Loïc

keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#6

Post by keith A » 11 Mar 2014, 11:15

Yep, Loic,

I get the feeling that it was one person's bad information that was then copied into other obituaries ;-) Thanks for the bit about 6e RTM. I knew he was assigned to an Algerian regiment but not which one. Apparently his offence in Algeria was political activism. Once again looking into Ben Bella I find a mention by the philosopher Frantz Fanon of an encounter where Ben Bella objected to the double standards in the French Army. They were travelling in the same troop transport at the time. I wonder if it was the incident recreated (slightly differently) in the film "Days of Glory"?

regards

Keith

keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#7

Post by keith A » 11 Mar 2014, 19:03

Just read this...

“L’occupation de l’Afrique du Nord par les Alliés laissait présager qu’on allait mobiliser les réservistes. Je fus appelé au
cours de l’été 1943 et versé au 6e tirailleur algérien, à Tlemcem. Quel contraste avec le 141e de Marseille ! Au 6e
tirailleur, l’inégalité entre gradés algériens et gradés français était flagrante. Deux mess distincts pour les deux catégo -
ries d’officiers, deux popotes séparées pour les sous-officiers. Nos assiettes n’avaient pas le droit de fraterniser avec
les assiettes de Français de grade égal. Nos verres n’avaient pas le droit de trinquer avec les leurs, même si les leurs
contenaient du vin et les nôtres de l’eau. Je passe sur la gêne et les humiliations que cette ségrégation entraînait.
Les Algériens la supportaient de plus en plus mal. Pour les peuples sous domination coloniale, l’année 1940 avait écla -
té comme un coup de tonnerre. L’Histoire sortait de ses voies traditionnelles et, tout d’un coup, s’arrêtait. Les frontières
étaient franchies, les Etats s’écroulaient, tout était remis en cause. Nous sentions que l’Algérie ne pouvait pas rester à
l’écart des grands bouleversements du siècle. Nous avions l’impression de nous réveiller d’un long sommeil et de nous
redresser à demi, la main appuyée sur le sol qui avait appartenu à nos pères.”

Maybe Ben Bella had to leave 6e RTA because he'd been vocal about the double standards. I read that his c.o in 5 RTM asked him whether he was going to be a problem, and on receiving assurances that Ben Bella was eager to fight the Germans told him that so long as that was his focus then he'd be welcome. I also note in another article he mentions resisting Vichy attempts for him to get rid of a Jewish player in his Algerian team.

regards

Keith

keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#8

Post by keith A » 12 Mar 2014, 11:52

Found details of the incident where he won the Croix de Guerre. Apparently it was during a stuka raid on the port in June 1940. His was one of three claimed shot down by DCA.

regards

Keith

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1227
Joined: 14 Jun 2003, 04:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France
Contact:

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#9

Post by Loïc » 12 Mar 2014, 21:48

So this means that he was not at all with the 141e RIA after september 1939, staying in Marseille in an AAA battery of the 405e DCA during all the campaign of may-june, there were only two air raids against Marseille : one (two) german the 1st and 2nd june and an other italian 20 days later, (not sure too that it was a stuka stricto sensu but for the French all german planes are stukas)
He said that he did the "campaign of France", actually he saw it from the port of Marseille
I thought that he was with the 141e RIA who suffered many losses and received the Croix de Guerre for all the men at the end of the campaign


Regards
Loïc

keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#10

Post by keith A » 13 Mar 2014, 12:43

Just got this from another forum.

Le 1er juin, vers 14h30, vingt à vingt-cinq appareils (Heinkel 111 - Junker 88 et Junker 52) se présente en trois vaques successives à l'altitude de 3000 mètres et attaquent en semi-piqué à une altitude comprise entre 500 et 1000 mètres. Dans la passe Sud, le pétrolier norvégien Dageid est manqué. Par contre le cargo anglais Oxford, chargé de 2000 tonnes de coton est touché en rade de l'Estaque (4 morts - 8 disparus et 29 blessés). Un violent incendie se déclare dans la cargaison. Le collecteur incendie du bord mis hors service par l'explosion d'une des bombes et l'équipage ne peut combattre le feu. Malgré l'intervention du bateau-pompe Alerte, le feu ne peut être maîtrisé. Le cargo est sabordé à proximité de la batterie de Corbières. Il va brûler pendant vingt-quatre heures.
Quatre bombes tombent dans l'eau de part et d'autre de la jetée à la hauteur du bassin National.
En ville, une bombe rate le gazomètre de l'avenue de Lyon et crève la cuve à eau de l'établissement du gaz entraînant une inondation. Une autre bombe tombe devant une école de l'avenue de Neuville. Il y a eu 8 blessés du fait de ces deux projectiles.
La DCA tira 445 obus de 75 et fut assistée par le tir de plusieurs navires. Un avion parut touché.
Le 1er juin, entre 22h45 et 0h30, deuxième raid en plusieurs vagues successives sur l'Estaque et Marignane. Le nombre des appareils allemands ne fut pas déterminé. Ces avions lancèrent des bombes incendiaires qui allumèrent des feux de broussailles près de l'Usine Kuhlmamm à l'Estaque Riaux et de l'aéroport de Marignane.
Trois bombes tombent dans l'enceinte de la batterie de Corbières (aucun dégât) et plusieurs sont lancées sur l'épave de l'Oxford toujours en feu.
C'est probablement lors de cette attaque que la Grand-Mère de VTT 13 a "hérité" d'un éclat de bombes
La DCA réagit en tirant 1058 coups de 75 sans atteindre un seul appareil.
Le 2 juin, entre 8h53 et 10h33, dix avions allemands attaquent la raffinerie de la Mède tandis que huit autres attaquent le port de Marseille.
A la Mède, deux bacs contenant 22.000 mètres cubes d'ydrocarbures sont incendiés. Sept autre bacs sont atteints, deux légèrement et sans perte d'hydrocarbures, les cinq autres plus gravement mais leur contenu put être presque entièrement récupéré par transfert dans d'autres bacs.
Un des avions lança deux bombes sur la batterie du Fort Vauban sans faire de dégâts et mitrailla la 185ème batterie de DCA voisine.
Quatre bombes tombèrent sur le terrain de Marignane et la batterie de Corbières reçut une nouvelle bombe incendiaire.
L'attaque sur le port fut beaucoup plus efficace.
Cinq hangars furent détruits ainsi que les 12.000 tonnes de marchandises qu'ils contenaient. Le cargo Malgache reçoit une bombe dans une cale qui ne déclenche aucun incendie (un mort). Le paquebot El Biar et les cargos Bamako et La Marsa subissent quelques avaries dans leurs œuvres mortes (partie du navire au dessus de la flottaison) par éclats de bombes ou projections de matériaux divers tandis que le paquebot Mexique, mitraillé, reçoit une balle dans sa cheminée. Le bateau pompe Alerte est encadré et a ses pompes avariées.
Le paquebot Chella reçoit une bombe et prend feu (10 morts ou disparus et 6 blessés). L'incendie prend rapidement des proportions inquiétantes. de plus le navire qui doit appareiller le lendemain a chargé un lot de munition à destination du Maroc. Les amarres de l'arrière sont larguées et passées à des remorqueurs qui ont accourus. Celles de l'avant ne peuvent l'être car la plage avant est inaccessible à cause de l'incendie. Elles sont coupées depuis la terre et un remorqueur capèle (accroche si vous préférez) une remorque sur l'ancre. Le convoi se met en route vers la sortie du port tandis que des petites explosions retentissent à bord. Le navire hors du port, les remorqueurs de l'arrière larguent les remorques tandis que celui de l'avant tente de conduire le navire en feu près de l'épave de l'Oxford. Une explosion plus violente rompt la remorque et le Chella commence à dériver. Le navire en feu est coulé sur les hauts fonds de Corbières par le patrouilleur auxiliaire Cyrnos.
En se retirant les assaillants mitraillent la batterie du Château d'If sans y cause ni pertes ni avaries.
Outre les victimes du Chella et du Malgache, on recensa vint et un morts et soixante-dix blessés.
La DCA tira 829 coups de 75 et plusieurs navires participèrent à la défense. Un appareil allemand fut touché et s'éloigna en flammes.
Quelques jours après une épave et deux cadavres seront retrouvés dans la Crau.


So it seems that his enemy bomber wasn't a Stuka after all. It could be he was the AA gunner responsible for bringing down the bomber on 2 June 1940!

Cheers

Keith

keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#11

Post by keith A » 13 Mar 2014, 12:48

....something further

Ce Junkers 88 a été abattu (victoire homologuée), peu après 10 heures, par la 5e section de la compagnie 5/XIV, de mitrailleuses de 13,2, qui défendait la gare de Modane (source archives du SHD).

Any links with 405e DCA?

Regards

Keith

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1227
Joined: 14 Jun 2003, 04:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France
Contact:

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#12

Post by Loïc » 13 Mar 2014, 22:26

Yes and no, these independant anti-aircraft machine-gun companies came from the Infantry Arm, so they didn't belong to the various DCA/AAA units of the Artillery arm but they were closely associated to them in each region and under the same regional Anti-Aircraft Defence command (FTA) with others balloon units of the Armée de l'Air, and as the 405e was allocated for the AA defence zone of the whole southeast of France this 5th machine-gun company of the XIVth Région (HQ Lyon) in Savoy, as the sames companies deployed in the XVth Region (HQ Marseille) complemented the Anti-Aircraft 'Orbat' of the southeast with batteries of the 405th

Ben Bella said he was posted in "Cap Janet" in the port but even with the AAA Orbat I didn't identify yet his "DCA battery", the nearest unit seems to be also a machine-gun company, the 2/XV, but as he was in the infantry initially it could be explanation

Regards
Loïc

keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#13

Post by keith A » 15 Mar 2014, 08:44

Thanks for all your help, Loic. I am still building up my information on the CEF and Africans in it's ranks and Ben Bella has been a great start. I know a little more about the Battle of France, the CEF and even have a better idea of how the Vichy organised the football league! I have bought a book on the CEF in Italie and will spend some time using my imperfect French to translate it :) I am going to pick Tunisian, Moroccan and Senegalese subjects for my research so hopefully I will have a more comprehensive idea of Colonial soldiers in the French Army in WW2. The subject is very interesting because the British relationship with Indians and African was slightly different. Indian and African regiments were largely officered by British subjects with a few Nco's whereas French Colonial regiments seem to include metropolitan Frenchmen in all the ranks as well as indigenous soldiers.

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1227
Joined: 14 Jun 2003, 04:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France
Contact:

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#14

Post by Loïc » 16 Mar 2014, 02:54

Yes it was more complex, for the Senegalese Tirailleurs in 1939-1945 there was a recent book by Julien Fargettas


and more detailed datas coming from a Provençal camarade confirm me that at "cap Janet" where Ben Bella said he was in the "DCA" actually it should be the 2nd Section of the 2/XV machine-gun (13.2mm) company I have seen, so not really a "AAA battery" even if it was an Anti-Aicraft unit

Regards
Loïc

keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Ahmed Ben Bella, Tirailleur and conscription

#15

Post by keith A » 16 Mar 2014, 09:17

Superb! So he could have been attached to the 2/XV? Unfortunately that' means he wasn't one of the crew credited with the Ju88 of KG51 So how did he receive the Croix de Guerre? Perhaps he was awarded it for service in the battles on the Somme-Aisne and Loire - although it seems the 141e was in action throughout the period 17 May-25 June 1940?

Regards

Keith

Post Reply

Return to “France 1919-1945”