Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

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Loïc
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Re: 8e DIC ~ 8e DLIC

#61

Post by Loïc » 27 Aug 2016, 19:44

hello Kelvin

not really because these «divisions» here were only for the period concerned by Gilles Ragache's book (15th to 25th june) totally or partially destroyed, reduced to remnants or phantom divisions as you see with their respectives strenghts

the exception is the "fresh" 8e DIC raised only few weeks before and one of the 2 Colonial Divisions (2e and 8e) maintained until early june in Reserve of the Army of the Alps (64e 65e 66e DI & Fortified Sectors)

converted into DLI-type and sent 10th june to the Army of Paris with 358 officers 11 038 men (11 396)
reduced to 242 officers 5520 men (5762) the 22nd june
then 211 officers 4525 men (4736) the 25th june

Regards
Loïc L.

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Re: 8e DIC ~ 8e DLIC

#62

Post by Kelvin » 27 Aug 2016, 21:21

Loïc wrote:hello Kelvin

not really because these «divisions» here were only for the period concerned by Gilles Ragache's book (15th to 25th june) totally or partially destroyed, reduced to remnants or phantom divisions as you see with their respectives strenghts

the exception is the "fresh" 8e DIC raised only few weeks before and one of the 2 Colonial Divisions (2e and 8e) maintained until early june in Reserve of the Army of the Alps (64e 65e 66e DI & Fortified Sectors)

converted into DLI-type and sent 10th june to the Army of Paris with 358 officers 11 038 men (11 396)
reduced to 242 officers 5520 men (5762) the 22nd june
then 211 officers 4525 men (4736) the 25th june

Regards
Loïc L.

Hi, Loic, thank a lot on 8th Colonial infantry division. Did 11e and 57e DI not take part in combat in central France ? I see sources that 11e DI joined the offensive in Sept 1939 and was replused and was refitting during Gelb. She had 11500 men , and after deducting shortfall, it almost intact in this campaign.


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Re: 11e DI

#63

Post by Loïc » 28 Aug 2016, 15:15

of course both were also in this last part of the campaign, the 11e DI was an active Division, one of the best trained Infantry Divisions, the Iron Division, and not really involved until early june in the battlefield, a part of the explanation
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Re: 11e DI

#64

Post by Kelvin » 29 Aug 2016, 08:39

Loïc wrote:of course both were also in this last part of the campaign, the 11e DI was an active Division, one of the best trained Infantry Divisions, the Iron Division, and not really involved until early june in the battlefield, a part of the explanation
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Loïc
Hi, Loic, I heard that name " Iron Division " for a long time. I have post it before why it get that name but no response. Apart from 11e DI, I think 14e DI, 27e and 29e DIA Blue Devil, also famous divisions. In modern French Army, 27e Alpine Division still existed during the Cold War.

I think 8e DI was also good unit as it had one Foreign Legion regiment and other were training battalions from active divisions.

BTW, apart from 600 infantrymen left altogether, did 8e DI still had some artillery and sapper unit or no more ?

In accordance with Lee Sharp book volume 2 French OOB , it mentions German troops only captured combat elements of 31e DIA and 40e DI but I see other books always say their whole divisions surrendered. Is it most of artillery and service unit of French army were evacuated out of St Valery-en-Caux ? Thank

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#65

Post by Loïc » 29 Aug 2016, 21:24

hello

the Iron Division the nickname comes from before the Great War because it was the Division raised in Lorraine after 1871 with best and old active regiments (26e 37e 69e 79e) and so "the" Division especially trained to face in first line to Germany at the frontier with it
when the XXth Army Corps of Lorraine was raised in 1897-1898 with it, joined by a newly-raised division, the 39e DI, its second division has been nicknamed the Steel Division, such nicknames merged the valient military and steel industrial soul of Lorraine

the 8e DI had still 2 groups each of the 82e and 282e but actually this last was detached to 28e DI, throughout may and june for all the Divisions several units could be detached or rattached under theirs commands giving frequent changes to the everyday divisional ORBAT

of the 40e DI except GSD 196, GED 196, III/8e RAC, 208e RALC, there were 3 Chasseurs companies disembarked in Bayonne via England

of the 31e DIA 733 men from HQ Train, Signals and Services

Regards
Loïc L.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#66

Post by Kelvin » 29 Aug 2016, 22:43

Loïc wrote:hello

the Iron Division the nickname comes from before the Great War because it was the Division raised in Lorraine after 1871 with best and old active regiments (26e 37e 69e 79e) and so "the" Division especially trained to face in first line to Germany at the frontier with it
when the XXth Army Corps of Lorraine was raised in 1897-1898 with it, joined by a newly-raised division, the 39e DI, its second division has been nicknamed the Steel Division, such nicknames merged the valient military and steel industrial soul of Lorraine

the 8e DI had still 2 groups each of the 82e and 282e but actually this last was detached to 28e DI, throughout may and june for all the Divisions several units could be detached or rattached under theirs commands giving frequent changes to the everyday divisional ORBAT

of the 40e DI except GSD 196, GED 196, III/8e RAC, 208e RALC, there were 3 Chasseurs companies disembarked in Bayonne via England

of the 31e DIA 733 men from HQ Train, Signals and Services

Regards
Loïc L.

Hi, Loic, thank for all your information.

I never hear " 39e DI Steel division " If war went longer , French probably rebuilt that division.

Regarding 40e DI, do you mean the whole of 208e RALC and III/8e RAC was captured in St Valery-en-Caux or went to England ? And also mean only 733 men service troop from 30e DIA was saved ? Thank.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#67

Post by Loïc » 29 Aug 2016, 23:07

Yes all these troops are saved elements but only the 3 Chasseurs companies escaped from Saint Valéry-en-Caux pocket embarking to England, the others were not encircled in the pocket or didn't join the Division like the 208e
Loïc

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#68

Post by Kelvin » 30 Aug 2016, 07:03

Hi, Loic, thank for your explanation. And your sentence " this last " you mean the latter ? that mean only 282e RALD was attached to 28e DIA ? 82e RAD still under 8e DI ?

I see many units were forced to abandon its artillery pieces, like 14e and 24e DI. Active divisions.

And 36e and 42e DI, one of the best French divisons in this moment, unfortunatley were encircled, but with their possession of better combat skill than other A and B class divisions, did they save some units out of German encirclement ? Do you have some data about that ? Thank.

And based upon your data, 19e almost lost everything except remnant of 41e RI, a little bit disappointed.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#69

Post by Loïc » 30 Aug 2016, 23:03

hello

According to Historiques Succincts
36e DI nothing except few isolated soldiers have escaped
42e DI captivity for the whole division the 17th june except few Staff officers and the general captured 10 days later the 27th june

the 282e RALNA was detached from 8e DI and rattached to 27e and 28e DI and even 41e DI, and Ist group of the 82e followed same fate before the regiment was reduced to the IIIrd Group of the 8e DI

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Loïc L.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#70

Post by Kelvin » 31 Aug 2016, 00:26

Loïc wrote:hello

According to Historiques Succincts
36e DI nothing except few isolated soldiers have escaped
42e DI captivity for the whole division the 17th june except few Staff officers and the general captured 10 days later the 27th june

the 282e RALNA was detached from 8e DI and rattached to 27e and 28e DI and even 41e DI, and Ist group of the 82e followed same fate before the regiment was reduced to the IIIrd Group of the 8e DI

Regards
Loïc L.

Hi, Loic, thank a lot for your explanation on 8e DI, that mean she actually only had two groups (II and III Group/82e RA) under its command and when war end, she only had III Group left. Other units were attached to other divisions.


General Keller was out of encirclement and on June 27, armistice was in full operation, he still needed to be captured ? And I see sources that General Corbe, GOC of 20e DI, was hailed as hero when he evaded German capture, did he save many troop out of German enciclement earned him that reputation ? Thank.

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Re: Question about several Divisions june 1940

#71

Post by Kelvin » 01 Sep 2016, 22:02

Loïc wrote:hello


the same for the 28e DIA around 1000 men for the whole division the 9th june including 710 from the 99e RIA and 3 companies for each BCA but as said between the 9th and 25th june the division has suffered others losses, Artillery was reduced to 2 batteries of the 202e, the 3 Alpine Chasseurs Battalions reduced to ~400 men etc...

7e DINA the 10th june few men for the Recce Group, 200 for the 20e RTT, 300 of the 31e RTA, 10e RTM destroyed or captured, 600 men for the 81e RANA, 300 for the 281e RALNA
the whole division 275 officers 5144 men the 12th june

about the 19e 29e 47e DI Gilles Ragache describes them as almost disappeared the 19th june, remnants of the 41e RI for the first,
the 87e DIA keeping 9500 men the 25th june according to Gilles Ragache

Regards
Loïc L.
Hi, Loic, if you are free sometimes, may you give some addition information on units above if those are available in your database ?

28e DIC : apart from 3 Alpine Chasseurs btns you mentioned, 99e RI still had 710 men on June 9, any data on their status on June 25 ?

7e DINA still had 5419 men on June 12 but apart from 1500 infanty and artillerists you mentioned, what are they still had another 4000 men ? what are they ?

Regarding 19e DI, did 22nd Foreign Legion destroyed completely ? Or no artillery units existed at all ?

And 87e DIA, only two infantry battalions left by June 25, but still had 9500 men left, was they all other units completely intact like their RAD and RALD undamaged at all ? Thank.

I will appreciate if you help on those.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#72

Post by Loïc » 03 Sep 2016, 23:54

hello

unfortunately there is no further detailed figures on this source for what you ask about 99e RIA or 7e DINA

22nd Regiment was not really a Foreign Legion but a Foreign Volunteers Regiment (RMVE something different from the Legion) who has suffered heavy losses as prisoners, wounded, etc... it is considered as largely destroyed/captured as the 117e, great part of the Artillery (at least two 75mm and one heavy groups) and of the 41e with the 19e DI reduced to one third of its infantry the 5th-8th june

the 87e DIA was renforced by 2 fresh units the black-african 19e BATS and southwestern French reservists of the 344e RI sent in garrison to North Africa when the war was declared
no figures, the field Artillery has kept two 75mm Groups with 8 and 6 guns, only one heavy 155 group with 9 guns
Recce Group reduced to one half-horse squadron and 3 platoons
one and half company of sappers

General Keller of the 42e DI was captured probably because he didn't reach the southern free zone, he was in Autun, Burgundy, not very far from the demarcation line

Regards
Loïc

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#73

Post by Kelvin » 04 Sep 2016, 20:20

Loïc wrote:hello

unfortunately there is no further detailed figures on this source for what you ask about 99e RIA or 7e DINA

22nd Regiment was not really a Foreign Legion but a Foreign Volunteers Regiment (RMVE something different from the Legion) who has suffered heavy losses as prisoners, wounded, etc... it is considered as largely destroyed/captured as the 117e, great part of the Artillery (at least two 75mm and one heavy groups) and of the 41e with the 19e DI reduced to one third of its infantry the 5th-8th june

the 87e DIA was renforced by 2 fresh units the black-african 19e BATS and southwestern French reservists of the 344e RI sent in garrison to North Africa when the war was declared
no figures, the field Artillery has kept two 75mm Groups with 8 and 6 guns, only one heavy 155 group with 9 guns
Recce Group reduced to one half-horse squadron and 3 platoons
one and half company of sappers

General Keller of the 42e DI was captured probably because he didn't reach the southern free zone, he was in Autun, Burgundy, not very far from the demarcation line

Regards
Loïc
Hi, Loic, thank so much for your help. Very much appreciated. :D

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#74

Post by Kelvin » 06 Sep 2016, 08:46

Hello, Loic, do you have data on status of three A class divisions on June 25 1940 : 6e, 26e and 30e DI ? I know they were captured in Vosges but nothing left ? Thank

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#75

Post by Loïc » 06 Sep 2016, 14:23

hello

indeed, no surprise with the fate of the Armies of the East encircled in the Vosges
6e DI reduced to 2500 men, only 300 of which were fightings elements, surrender 23rd june with Groupement Dubuisson
26e DI captured in the night of 20th/21st june except the 14e GRDI the 24th
30e DI last elements captured 23rd june

Regards
Loïc

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