Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

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Kelvin
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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#76

Post by Kelvin » 07 Sep 2016, 08:21

Loïc wrote:hello

indeed, no surprise with the fate of the Armies of the East encircled in the Vosges
6e DI reduced to 2500 men, only 300 of which were fightings elements, surrender 23rd june with Groupement Dubuisson
26e DI captured in the night of 20th/21st june except the 14e GRDI the 24th
30e DI last elements captured 23rd june

Regards
Loïc
Hi, Loic, thank a lot. I guess Guderian only had six mobile divisions in the rear and was difficult for blocking all the roads to the west. Given the quality of A class Division, I think they should have some escaped, so did several active divisions like 1 and 3e DIC and 3e DINA. The result is out of my expectation. :( In the Flanders, at least French division each some remnants went back to France. Like 95.G.D.R.I from 5e DINA, 38 G.D.R.I from 32e DI and one Moroccan btn and 29e Chasseur btn from 43e DI.

On the other hand, I should think all B class divisions in Vosges (50 and 60 series) were no more given their inferior manpower quality.

And I would like to ask when 2e DIC was redesignated as 2e DLIC, was she deployed in the central France ? Or still stayed in the Alps area. Some books OOB says she still in Alps, some say she was fighting with Army Group 3. If she did fight in the north, what was its casualties by the end of campaign, also heavy ? Thank

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Loïc
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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#77

Post by Loïc » 07 Sep 2016, 17:03

hello

it is true that both 2e and 8e DIC were initially in the southeast as Reserve of Army of the Alps but wrong that they stayed there, as they were converted into DLIC to send them on the "northern" frontline

the 2e DLIC was sent to 7e Armée the 13th june defending a sector of the Seine River on the east of Fontainebleau, Seine-et-Marne Dept
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/cartes ... 6_13p1.JPG

8e RTS reduced to 2000 men
4th Half-Brigade of Pyrenean Chasseurs to 430 men
the Artillery reduced to one Group
the 72e GRDI 2 platoons and few elements

Gilles Ragache wrote that the whole Division was reduced to 6000 men

Regards
Loïc L.


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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#78

Post by Kelvin » 08 Sep 2016, 08:33

Loïc wrote:hello

indeed, no surprise with the fate of the Armies of the East encircled in the Vosges
6e DI reduced to 2500 men, only 300 of which were fightings elements, surrender 23rd june with Groupement Dubuisson
26e DI captured in the night of 20th/21st june except the 14e GRDI the 24th
30e DI last elements captured 23rd june

Regards
Loïc
Hi, Loic, thank so much on 2e DIC. Just ten days combat had exhausted its 40% manpower. :o

Do you know if 7e DIC , 11e DI and 57e DI also like 87e DINA absorbed additonal infantry units (19e BATS and 344e RI). Because those divisons : 7e DINA, 11e and 57e DI still had 9000, 11500 and 8000 men manpower when the campaign ended ? All they had additonal infantry or artillery units ? Thank. e.g 23e DI had three Czech battalions attached.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#79

Post by Loïc » 08 Sep 2016, 22:36

hello

for the 7e DIC has ended with still rattached 17e BATS and 52e BMM (Motorised Machine-Gun Battalion) Ist Group 321e RAP

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#80

Post by Kelvin » 09 Sep 2016, 18:55

Loïc wrote:hello

for the 7e DIC has ended with still rattached 17e BATS and 52e BMM (Motorised Machine-Gun Battalion) Ist Group 321e RAP
Hi, Loic, thank a lot for your informtion.

Thank for all your information on individual divisions of French Army, I would like to ask you any additional data on 27e Alpine division, apart from 2 battalions and three batteries left, any additional information on that unit like the total number of troop on June 25 or status in individual units, like RI, RA, sapper, signal or service units ? Do you have some on that ?

And 2e DLC saved its engineer and rear service units from St Valery-en-Caux, so did 5e DLC some remnant, do you have figures on remnant of those units from your data base ? Thank.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#81

Post by Loïc » 09 Sep 2016, 23:58

unfortunately no further datas for 27e DIA in this source
and nothing more that the whole 5e DLC ceased to exist the 12th june with the fall of Saint Valéry-en-Caux pocket
Loïc

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#82

Post by Kelvin » 10 Sep 2016, 22:53

Loïc wrote:unfortunately no further datas for 27e DIA in this source
and nothing more that the whole 5e DLC ceased to exist the 12th june with the fall of Saint Valéry-en-Caux pocket
Loïc

Hello, Loic, that's OK. Thank a lot for all your help on status of so many French infantry/Alpine divisions in 1940. Basically each infantry division I would have some hard information from u, except 85e DIA and 3e DIM. Thank

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#83

Post by Kelvin » 11 Sep 2016, 19:59

Loïc wrote:hello

unfortunately no further datas others than you have already found for both Divisions, only the Recce Group escaped for the 4e DIC
the 400 survivors of the 24e DI the 9th june reduced to a fighting company-size detachment the 17th june

Regards
Loïc
Hi, Loic, something I forget to ask : apart from 400 infantry left, did 24e DI had any artillery units or service /sapper/signal units left at the end ? And also 4e DIC had nothing left in artillery or service units other than units you mentioned ?

And did 74.GRDI keep all their horsed sqn and motorcycle sqn ?

And 3e DLC and 2e DCR seemed to be ok in regards with their manpower pool,albeit they lost all their AFV and vehicles, how are their status, do you have some information on those units ? Thank

Regarding 87e DIA and 7e DIC, the former had 9500 men on June 25 with attached units like 19e BATS and 344e RI, around 3800 men and the latter had 17e BATS, 52e BMM and one group from 321e RAP around 2500 men, if deducting their attached units, 87e DIA actual manpower level were only 5500 men and 7e DIA only 6500 men left, so their manpower level was just same as many French division in this moment, do you have some information on those two units ' status or their subunits like infantry regiments, artillery or sapper/service units at the end of campaign ? Thank

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#84

Post by Loïc » 15 Sep 2016, 18:05

hello
no more datas about these 4 infantry divisions that is not already in the thread

no figures for the 2e DCr, has ended the campaign with 80 tanks, 60 able to be sent in frontline in 6 tank battalions
17e BCP and still its artillery and services

3e DLC was mainly captured only escaped few divisional units and provisional rattached groupements
HQ Services Sanitary Group Engineers Signals & Train, Ist Group 72e RA, 3rd Anti-Tank Squadron
5e Groupe Franc Motorisé de Cavalerie
Group from Poitiers Artillery School,
Groupement Saint Laumer (Squadrons of the Dragons Portés Organisation Center)
Groupement from Infantry Depot 23
Groupemet Pichon from North African Depot 92 bis, Saint Maixent Infantry School, Saumur Cavalry School
60e RI elements

Regards
Loïc L.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#85

Post by Kelvin » 16 Sep 2016, 18:24

Loïc wrote:hello
no more datas about these 4 infantry divisions that is not already in the thread

no figures for the 2e DCr, has ended the campaign with 80 tanks, 60 able to be sent in frontline in 6 tank battalions
17e BCP and still its artillery and services

3e DLC was mainly captured only escaped few divisional units and provisional rattached groupements
HQ Services Sanitary Group Engineers Signals & Train, Ist Group 72e RA, 3rd Anti-Tank Squadron
5e Groupe Franc Motorisé de Cavalerie
Group from Poitiers Artillery School,
Groupement Saint Laumer (Squadrons of the Dragons Portés Organisation Center)
Groupement from Infantry Depot 23
Groupemet Pichon from North African Depot 92 bis, Saint Maixent Infantry School, Saumur Cavalry School
60e RI elements

Regards
Loïc L.

Hi, Loic, thank a lot on your helps.

Regarding 3e DLC, do you mean GSD 49, GED 49, 49e sapper company, 49e signal company and both HQ motor and horse drawn transport companies were all escaped ? And 309e RA and GED 132 of 2e DCR were saved too ?

Both units mentioned above were mobile units and at least saved some subunits. Was it applicable to 3e DCR and 3e DIM ? When both were encircled, how many units they can escape as they too were motorized units ? Thank

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Re: 3e DIM 3e DCr

#86

Post by Loïc » 18 Sep 2016, 17:17

hello

yes for the 3e DLC and 2e DCr

3e DIM
since 13rd june reduced to 1300 infantrymen (51e RI 500; 67e RI 300; 91e RI 500)
6e GRDI 5 motorized platoons and 3 armoured cars
2 groups each 42e RA and 242e RA
last elements captured 18th june

3e DCr
lost 50% of the tanks crew, the 41e BCC largely destroyed, its 319e RATTT, Staff and divisional services captured, its infantry 16e BCP lost 600 of the 850 men
escaped elements part of the 10e 42e 45e 49e BCC and isolated soldiers

Regards
Loïc L.

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Re: 3e DIM 3e DCr

#87

Post by Kelvin » 18 Sep 2016, 18:24

Loïc wrote:hello

yes for the 3e DLC and 2e DCr

3e DIM
since 13rd june reduced to 1300 infantrymen (51e RI 500; 67e RI 300; 91e RI 500)
6e GRDI 5 motorized platoons and 3 armoured cars
2 groups each 42e RA and 242e RA
last elements captured 18th june

3e DCr
lost 50% of the tanks crew, the 41e BCC largely destroyed, its 319e RATTT, Staff and divisional services captured, its infantry 16e BCP lost 600 of the 850 men
escaped elements part of the 10e 42e 45e 49e BCC and isolated soldiers

Regards
Loïc L.

Hi, Loic, thank so much for your detailed information. Did 10e BCC attached unit ? I don't see it in 3e Cuirassee Division OOB ? I find out 10e BCC were equipped with Renault 35 tanks.Thank

Somtimes Divisional service in French 3e Cuirassee Division means only GED, or also included train, signals and sappers ? Thank

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#88

Post by Loïc » 19 Sep 2016, 03:46

hello
in this case services means all the rest of the Division not included in the mentioned units
the 10e BCC joined in emergency the 3e DCr the 8th june

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#89

Post by Kelvin » 19 Sep 2016, 08:26

Loïc wrote:hello
in this case services means all the rest of the Division not included in the mentioned units
the 10e BCC joined in emergency the 3e DCr the 8th june

Hi, Loic, thank for your help.

BTW, Was Frenh stick to theoretial strength of BCP in 1940 ? I see on paper strength is 973 men but 16e BCP only had 850 men and lost 600 men. Thank

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#90

Post by Kelvin » 24 Sep 2016, 20:47

Hi, Loic, I would like to ask you about status of five rebuilt DLM and rebuilt 1st Cuiraissee Division on the eve of armistice, do you have some related data, men, equipment, or surviving units or anything ?

Thank again.

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