French 1940 armament : 120mm mortar, mines and flamethrower

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David Lehmann
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French 1940 armament : 120mm mortar, mines and flamethrower

#1

Post by David Lehmann » 09 Nov 2003, 12:39

Hello,

1) Brandt 120 mm mortar Mle 1935 :
This heavy mortar had been adopted by the French Army and a squad of 2 mortars should have been issued in each regiment in 1940 according to Ferrrard's book. This mortar was also manufactured in Russia under the
name "120mm Polkovoy Minomyot Obr.1938g". The Russians used it extensively and it has later been copied by the germans for their "120 mm Granatewerfer 1942".
Brandt sold the Kuomintang regime two 120mm mortars and 275 rounds of ammunition in 1938, and these were delivered in March 1939 via Rangoon and the Burma Road. With the fall of France further purchases became impossible and the weapons were turned over to the 21st Arsenal for reverse-engineering. In the meantime, the 50th Arsenal was working on their own design and a competition between the two was held in 1943/44. The 21st Arsenal (Brandt-derived) mortar was chosen in 1944 (hence the designation 33 = 33rd year of the Republic), amid allegations of skullduggery raised by the 50th Arsenal, who claimed that the 21st had intercepted shipments of materials from the US intended for them. In any event, none were actually built until 1945. Production appears to have ceased around 1946, with probably about a hundred built.
The main differences between the Brandt version delivered to China (Brandt developed a bewildering array of 120mm designs during the 1930s) and the Type 33 was that the 21st Arsenal shorted the tube slightly to reduce weight and replaced the spring-carried pneumatic tires with simple wooden spoke wheels on an unsprung axle.
Although some photos can be find the 120mm mortars were probably not
issued to the French army before the armistice. They were just one of the list of excellent weapons developed in the 1920's and 30's but not
prioritised for early production.


2) Mines :
I am looking for any kind of information about French land mines ...
There is nothing in Ferrard's book for example ... What kind of
anti-tank and anti-personnal mines ?

"Weapons of the Third Reich", by Terry Gander and Peter
Chamberlain, 1978, ISBN 0385150903, on p. 356, has pictures
and info of a light and a heavy French anti-tank mine :

Image

Could please someone help me to find the French designation of these mines ?

"Hommes et Ouvrages De La Ligne Maginot", by Jean-Yves Mary
et Alain Hohnadel , 2001, ISBN 2-908182-97-1, Tome 2,
pp.56-57, has information on the Piquets Olivier, an improvised
AT mine using a 3.5kg explosive charge or 90mm, 95mm, or
120mm artillery shells could also be used instead. A stake was
attached to the explosive charge and a tank hitting it would
detonate the charge or shell.

Apprently antipersonel mines were not available in 1939 in France.
Not sure why in particular, but remember landmines were a pretty new
weapon at the time and prioritising the anti-tank variety seems
like a good decision.

French had AT mines, despite the popular misconception, and these were quite commonly issued and used during the campaign and not only by engineer units but for example all cavalry, recce, mechanized or motorized infantry batallions had a theoretical dotation of AT-mines. As with most weapon systems of the French army at this time, not as many had been issued as they really needed. However, they were used extensively at Gembloux where they formed an integrated part of the overwhelmingly successful AT defence and at this defensive area the German never broke through the French lines. The engineers layed a large number before the battle. One account by a 25mm AT gunner also mentions a 'chenillette'coming up to resupply them during a pause in the battle. As well as ammunition it brought a quantity of AT mines, which the gunners laid in front of their position.
At Sedan thousands of AT mines had been laid months before the campaign. Unfortunately they were reported to have been adversely affected by damp and so were dug up to be fixed. Sadly time did not permit them to be re-laid,which was kind of unfortunate.

3) Flamethrower :
I am also looking for any kind of information about French flamethrowers
... The French used flamethrowers extensively during WW1 and there are mention of flamethrowers being held in the engineer park of one or two of the armies in 1940. Otherwise no real evidence of their use in 1939/1940 ... any idea or information ?
I guess that the French saw the flamethrower as a very specialised weapon, only of use in prepared attacks on fortified or heavily entrenched positions. As they had not the slightest intention of doing anything like that before 1941, the French Army saw no call to encumber combat formations with them.

Regards,

David

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Juha Tompuri
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#2

Post by Juha Tompuri » 12 Nov 2003, 14:20

Hi!

"Handbook on German Military Forces" by US War Departrment 15th March 1945 adds the following:
"French Light Antitank Mine. The mine body consists of a rectangular steel body filled with 5 3/4 pounds of HE. In the top of the mine are two igniter pockets, one at either end. The body is covered with a slip-on rectangular cover the top of which is corrugated. There is a square hole in either end of the cover through which passes a safety bar which is released when the mine is laid. A pressure of from 300 pounds to 500 pounds in the lid causes it to decend on the igniters, exploding the mine. Igniters: Rod 35 and Rod 36
To neutralize:
a) search for and neutralize any anti-handling devices
b) lift cover and remove both igniters
c)replace the cover"

Thats all, Juha
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David Lehmann
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#3

Post by David Lehmann » 14 Nov 2003, 02:55

Thanks Juha !
About Flamethrowers I just found that 15 D2 tanks should have been transformed in FT tanks in June 1940. There were also planned modifications for the use of FT on the Renault UE chenillette.

David

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YC Chen
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Re: French 1940 armament : 120mm mortar, mines and flamethro

#4

Post by YC Chen » 11 Nov 2013, 12:06

Hello,

Could you please tell me what is you source on Brandt 120mm mortars goes to China? I thought the row between 21 and 50 Arsenal on 120mm mortar is rarely known outside(and even inside) China. Also the number of French 120mm mortars sold to China is interesting. Do you know how many of them were light type and how many were heavy type? I have seen a photo showing Chinese soldiers moving a Brandt 120mm heavy type Mortar.

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Re: French 1940 armament : 120mm mortar, mines and flamethro

#5

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 17 Nov 2013, 18:51

David Lehmann wrote:3) Flamethrower :
I am also looking for any kind of information about French flamethrowers
... The French used flamethrowers extensively during WW1 and there are mention of flamethrowers being held in the engineer park of one or two of the armies in 1940. Otherwise no real evidence of their use in 1939/1940 ... any idea or information ?
I guess that the French saw the flamethrower as a very specialised weapon, only of use in prepared attacks on fortified or heavily entrenched positions. As they had not the slightest intention of doing anything like that before 1941, the French Army saw no call to encumber combat formations with them.
David, I'm not an expert on the subject, but it is my understanding that your explanation about the lack of French infantry flamethrowers in 1939/40 is exactly correct. French tactical doctrine considered flamethrowers to be "assault" weapons only, and thus, because the French military anticipated fighting a primarily defensive war against Germany, development and production of flamethrowers was almost completely dropped by the early 1920s. (Britain actually was in a similar position -- despite having used "flame projectors" in WW1, the British military abandoned further development of the weapon after the war, and didn't adopt infantry flamethrowers again until 1943.)

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Re: French 1940 armament : 120mm mortar, mines and flamethro

#6

Post by StefanSiverud » 17 Nov 2013, 21:50

Stephen_Rynerson wrote:(Britain actually was in a similar position -- despite having used "flame projectors" in WW1, the British military abandoned further development of the weapon after the war, and didn't adopt infantry flamethrowers again until 1943.)
Then what about the No. 1 Mk-II "Marsden"?

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Re: French 1940 armament : 120mm mortar, mines and flamethro

#7

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 18 Nov 2013, 06:35

StefanSiverud wrote:
Stephen_Rynerson wrote:(Britain actually was in a similar position -- despite having used "flame projectors" in WW1, the British military abandoned further development of the weapon after the war, and didn't adopt infantry flamethrowers again until 1943.)
Then what about the No. 1 Mk-II "Marsden"?
The British began experimenting with new flamethrower designs in 1939, but as far as I'm aware they were never deployed in actual combat until the "No. 2" in 1943. The Wikipedia entry on this is, I think, fairly accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_ ... methrowers

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Re: French 1940 armament : 120mm mortar, mines and flamethro

#8

Post by StefanSiverud » 19 Nov 2013, 20:43

Stephen_Rynerson wrote:
StefanSiverud wrote:
Stephen_Rynerson wrote:(Britain actually was in a similar position -- despite having used "flame projectors" in WW1, the British military abandoned further development of the weapon after the war, and didn't adopt infantry flamethrowers again until 1943.)
Then what about the No. 1 Mk-II "Marsden"?
The British began experimenting with new flamethrower designs in 1939, but as far as I'm aware they were never deployed in actual combat until the "No. 2" in 1943. The Wikipedia entry on this is, I think, fairly accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_ ... methrowers
My point, perhaps it is nitpicking, is that man-portable flame throwers were indeed adopted before 1943.

I can't recall reading about any confirmed frontline use (a few unsubstantiated rumours though), although I recall reading No. 4 Commando was equipped with flamethrowers in the first half of 1942 for use on a raid. They were used in training for the raid, but the raid was cancelled.

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