Ask the details of French DINA(divisions of North Africa)?

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takata_1940
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Re: Ask the details of French DINA(divisions of North Africa)?

#16

Post by takata_1940 » 30 Nov 2009, 13:46

It looks like the number given by Wiki is exagerated.

More details about the Spanish 2e DB components: The largest Spanish number was at the time of the creation in 1943 and may be estimated at 2,000 out of 16,000. The rumor spread that a Spanish unit was under creation and many men deserted from other FF units to join this division. Most of them were affected to the RMT. But the number of Spanish shrinked when the men realised that Spain would be bypassed by the allies. (see: http://espana36.site.voila.fr/articles/LibParis44.html) - The reason evoqued for the calling of Spanish manpower for Leclerc's division was that the USA had forbidden the use of black troops in Armored divisions and his former unit used many of them - the number of 3,500 Spanish is given by some source. But in August 1944, only about one hundred remained.

From: http://pagesperso-orange.fr/jp2k/2db/divers_nueve.html
A la fin de la campagne africaine, en Mai 1943, la Force “ L “ du Général Leclerc, diverses unités de la France Libre et des éléments provenant des Corps Francs d’Afrique fûrent rassemblés pour créer une nouvelle unité: la 2ème Division Blindée (2ème DB). Des espagnols luttaient, déjà, dans ces unités depuis le début de la Guerre. D’autres espagnols combattaient depuis 1940 dans le Régiment de Tirailleurs Sénégalais du Tchad. Il est prouvé que des nombreux espagnols participèrent à l’heroïque prise de Koufra en conduisant des véhicules. Il en est de même pour les anti-chars qui luttèrent courageusement contre l’Afrika Korps à Ksar-Rhilane. Ils firent leur le serment de Leclerc.

Des espagnols étaient présents, aussi, dans les Corps Francs d’Afrique qui avaient été crées lors de la Campagne de Tunisie. C’était le cas du Capitaine Buiza (ancien amiral de la Marine Republicaine Espagnole) et du Lieutenant Antonio Van Baumbergen Clarasó, qui deviendrait, plus tard, Chef de la Compagnie Hors Rang du 3ème Bataillon du RMT.

Pendant la création de la 2ème DB, le bruit avait couru parmi les éxilés espagnols qu’une “ unité espagnole” avait été créee dans les rangs de la France Libre .Ceci poussa d’autres espagnols à rejoindre l’unité. Quelques uns s’étaient évadés des camps de concentration algériens et d’autres venaient de la 1ère DFL par le biais de ce que l’on appellait, avec ironie, une “mutation volontaire”.

Lorsqu’en Septembre 1943, le Général Leclerc prît le commandement de la Division, la plupart de nos compatriotes fûrent encadrés dans son Régiment d’Infanterie Motorisée, ancien Régiment de Tirailleurs Sénégalais du Tchad, devenu le Régiment de Marche du Tchad ( RMT). En fait, d’après des nombreux auteurs, sur les 16.000 hommes qui composaient la Division à ses origines, près de 2.000 étaient des espagnols encadrés, pour la plupart, dans le RMT où l’une de ses compagnies, la « Nueve », était pratiquement espagnole.

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Loïc
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Re: Ask the details of French DINA(divisions of North Africa)?

#17

Post by Loïc » 30 Nov 2009, 19:20

yes I have seen often these exaggerations, even in the thread about the BBC this one repeat them, just with the common sense : if the 2e DB had a such number of Spanish Republicans soldiers in 1944, near the Régiment de Marche du Tchad entirely would be spanish or one or two Battalions, not just only a 150 men-infantry company in a regiment who had at least 13 or 14 companies, CQFD :D
look the Dictionnaire Historique de la Résistance : 400 foreigners (70 % Spanish)
Le Monde too in 2004 if I remember had rectified the figure


reeht
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Re: Ask the details of French DINA(divisions of North Africa)?

#18

Post by reeht » 27 Jul 2015, 02:55

I hope it is OK to "borrow" this old thread. I am looking for any information about the 9e RTM (part of 6e DINA). As I understand it, the 9e RTM was mobilized in august 24th 1939. My french is limited - it says of the link* that the 9e RTM was "Formé avec un bn des 2e , 4e et 7e RTM" - What does this mean?

*= http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/mai40/Regimen ... s.html#RTM

Is it true that it consisted of mostly Marrocan soldiers but also native French (white) soldiers?

Does anyone have information about which battles the 9e RTM participated in before is was disbanded in 1940?
Does anyone have any photographs?

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Loïc
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Re: Ask the details of French DINA(divisions of North Africa)?

#19

Post by Loïc » 27 Jul 2015, 16:52

hello
this means that 3 RTM have given a battalion (Alain Adam has reduced the word to "bn") to form the newly-raised 9e RTM :
the 2nd Battalion of the 7e RTM, 2nd of the 4e RTM and 4th of the 2e RTM

each indigenous regiment having French officers, NCO's and even men (~one third of the strenght) even if it is mainly a moroccan regiment
(a French could be black or mulatto coming from the "Old Colonies" where the inhabitants were also French citizens like the white-metropolitan or Algerian "pieds noirs")

the 9e RTM was with the 6e DINA, a Division sent in the frontline in the Meuse the 18th may 1940 after the offensive in the Ardennes, due to the german advance, the unit was with the troops encircled in the eastern part of the front in Lorraine after the 15th june, so it saw fightings in the southern aera of Toul-Nancy before the surrender of the Army Group the 22nd-23rd june 1940 meaning a 5-years captivity in the stalags for many soldiers

Regards
Loïc

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Re:

#20

Post by Kelvin » 27 Feb 2016, 21:29

David Lehmann wrote:Hello,

The French Army in FRANCE in 1940 :

In 1940 there were 28* active infantry divisions (generally rather well equipped, most men under 30 years old) :
• 7 "motorized" infantry divisions (1e, 3e, 5e, 9e, 12e, 15e, 25e DIM)
• 10 infantry divisions (10e, 11e, 13e, 14e, 19e, 21e, 23e, 36e, 42e, 43e DI)
• 3 mountain infantry divisions (27e, 29e, 31e DIA)
• 4 colonial infantry divisions (1e, 2e, 3e, 4e DIC)
• 4 north African infantry divisions (1e, 2e, 3e, 4e DINA)
* there were only 20 in early 1939

Fortress infantry divisions : 101e, 102e, 103e, 104e and 105e DIF (administratively divisional organization but infantry regiments spread all along the Maginot Line).

The mobilization allowed to constitute :
• 24 “A” type reserve infantry divisions (equipment rather complete) :
--o 2e, 4e, 6e, 7e, 16e, 18e, 20e, 22e, 24e, 26e, 31e, 32e, 35e, 41e, 44e, 45e and 47e DI
--o 28e and 30e DIA
--o 5e, 6e and 7e DIC
--o 5e and 6e DINA

• 19 “B” type reserve infantry divisions (older men, many equipments and officers lacking) :
--o 51e, 52e, 53e, 54e, 55e, 56e, 57e, 58e, 60e, 61e, 62e, 63e, 66e, 67e, 68e, 70e and 71e DI
--o 64e and 65e DIA

A total of 71 infantry divisions (+ 5 fortress infantry divisions) at the beginning of the campaign.

There were also 4 armored divisions (1e, 2e, 3e and 4e DCR) depending from the infantry, 3 created between January and May 1940 and the fourth during the campaign.

For the cavalry, there were originally 3 cavalry divisions (1e, 2e and 3e DC) later reorganized to form 5 light cavalry divisions (1e, 2e, 3e, 4e and 5e DLC). There were also 3 light mechanized divisions (1e, 2e and 3e DLM) formed before May 1940 (the 3e DLM being mostly formed by reservists) plus the 4e and 7e DLM formed during the campaign on reduced establishments from two shattered cavalry divisions.

The fortress divisions could be considered active units as their components were originally active units. The ratio of active and reserve troops in the active, series A and series B divisions probably varied widely among those of the same type. It should also be pointed out some active divisions had to give up a large part of their active elements to form the series A and B divisions ; they could almost be called series A themselves.

On 10th May 1940 the cavalry consisted in :
• 5 Divisions Légères de Cavalerie (DLC)
• 3 Divisions Légères Mécaniques (DLM)
• 1 Brigade de Cavalerie (BC)
• 3 Brigades de Spahis (BS)
• 23 Groupes de Reconnaissance de Corps d'Armée (GRCA)
--o 20 normal (horses)
--o 3 motorized
• 105 Groupes de Reconnaissance de Division d'Infanterie (GRDI)
--o 52 normal (horses)
--o 7 motorized (5 with armored cars)
--o 46 reduced (in the colonies or late created units)
• A few corps francs de cavalerie (including armored cars) during the campaign
• 3 regiments in the 4e DCR


DINA stands for Division d'Infanterie Nord-Africaine, North-African Infantry Division.
1) The organization of a DINA is similar to a French "North-East" infantry division. Generally all the officers are white but there are white and arabs among the troops. The Africans were not segregated like in the US Army, the troops were mixed and there were also African officers, I have at least the example of one Senegalese captain.
2) There is no tanks in such a unit.
3) The equipment was as good as the other infantry units and most of the DINA were active trooops.
4) What do you call "French Foreigner Corps" ? There are aslo French colonial units, French overseas units and French Foreign Legion units ....

There were initially 4 DINA and 2 more after the mobilization. A 7e DINA was created on 16th March 1940 but the only North African element was the infantry.
These division were roughly identical in organization to the other type "North East" infantry divisions, except the infantry and artillery regiments were type "Nord Africaine".
The exception was 5e DINA, a "white" North African Division with Zouave infantry and colonial artillery regiments.
In October 1939, a regiment of North African troops from the 2e, 3e and 4e DINA were each replaced by a "white" regiment.
A division on open terrain would hold a front 5 to 7 kilometers wide and some 5 deep.

Composition of a DINA :
• A divisional headquarters
• 1 RZ (Régiment de Zouaves) = Zouave infantry regiment = Europeans (a metropolitan regiment in 4e DINA and a demi-brigade de Chasseurs à Pied in 6e DINA, no European regiment in 1e and 7e DINA - The Zouaves regiments are initially built with white colonists from Algeria)
• 2 North African infantry regiments (3 regiments in 1e and 7e DINA). These regiments were RTA = régiment de tirailleurs algériens, RTT = régiment de tirailleurs tunisiens or RTM = régiment de tirailleurs marocains
• A (13th) divisional pioneer company
• A (14th) divisional AT company (CDAC = compagnie divisionnaire anti-char - 12x 25mm SA34 AT guns)
• A North African light artillery regiment (RANA = régiment d'artillerie nord africaine, 36 75mm Mle1897 guns)
• A North African heavy artillery regiment (RALNA = régiment d'artillerie lourde nord africaine, 24 155mm C Mle1917 guns)
• A (10th) divisional AT battery (BDAC = batterie de défense anti-char, 8 47mm SA37 AT guns in several reserve divisions it is a mixed AT battery with 75mm and 47mm guns)
• A divisional artillery park (PAD = parc d'artillerie divisionnaire)
• An engineer battalion (bataillon de sapeurs-mineurs)
• A telegraph company
• A radio company
• A horse drawn HQ transport company
• A motor HQ transport company
• A divisional quartermaster service
• A divisional medical group

Total for the DINA :
• 497 officers, 1736 NCOs, 14309 corporals and men = 16542 soldiers
• 4869 horses / mules
• 1278 wagons
• 546 motor vehicles (cars, trucks, heavy trucks, Renault UE chenillettes)
• 284 motorcycles / side-cars
• 625 bicycles

Regards,

David

Hi, David, I see the book why France collapsed mentions each French North African infantry regiment had 1,995 Arab soldiers and nine officers and 331 French soldiers and 57 officers.

Did other units in DINA, like engineer battalion, signal units, transport company, artillery units and other admin units also some breakdown in the number of Arab and French in each unit ? Thank.

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Re: Ask the details of French DINA(divisions of North Africa)?

#21

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 27 Feb 2017, 12:30

How many vehicles did the French Army field overall in 1940

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Loïc
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Re: vehicles of French Army

#22

Post by Loïc » 01 Mar 2017, 00:11

436 000 including motos according to François Vauvillier in L'Automobile sous l'Uniforme 1939-1940 :
345 000 for the field armies, 66 000 for the rest of the territorial units, 25 000 for the Armée de l'Air

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