French aircraft carrier Bearn
French aircraft carrier Bearn
According to Roger Chesneau's Aircraft Carriers of the World, the Bearn after her US refit in 43/44, she returned to her duties as a transport ship for aircraft etc.
I was wondering if there was any particular reason she wasn't used as a Escort carrier in the Battle of the Atlantic?
Regards
Andy H
I was wondering if there was any particular reason she wasn't used as a Escort carrier in the Battle of the Atlantic?
Regards
Andy H
- David Lehmann
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Hello Andy,
I think it was simply too slow for the requirements of the time.
In 1920 begins the construction of the battleship Béarn and in 1923 the naval command wants it transformed into an aircraft carrier. The new ship with the hull of the battleship is ready for 1927.
22156 - 28400 tons
Length : 182.60m
Width : 27.13m
21.5 knots
Armament : 4x1 155mm guns, 6x1 75mm AA guns, 8x1 37mm AA guns, 16x 13.2mm AAMGs, 4x 550mm torpedo tubes
Embarked aircrafts : 40
Crew : 875
Compared to these 21.5 knots the Glorious and Courageous of the Royal Navy could reach 31 knots with 48 embarked planes.
At the beginning of WW2, the Béarn is seen as unable to fulfill its mission and is used as training ship. The embarked aircrafts (Vought V.156F, Loire-Nieuport LN.401/411) are then land-based and are engaged against the German ground troops in May-June 1940.
In May 1940, the Béarn is sent to Halifax (Canada) with the cruisers Emile-Bertin and Jeanne d'Arc to tranport there part of the gold reserves of France.
In the USA the Béarn loads 90 aircrafts :
• 44 Curtiss SBC4 Helldiver (SBC4)
• 15 Curtiss H75 A4
• 6 Brewster B 339 (export version of the Buffalo - to be delivered to Belgium which ordered 40 of them)
• 25 Stinson 105 (Voyager)
On its side, the cruiser Jeanne d'Arc loads also 6 Curtiss H75 fighters.
All these aircrafts are unloaded on 19th July 1940 at Fort de France in Guadeloupe (where the ships arrived on 27th June 1940), except the 6 Curtiss H75 of the Jeanne d'Arc which are unloaded in Pointe à Pitre. The 6 fighters are parked in a field and the French Navy dismounted the .50 HMGs for its own use.
The Béarn and the 2 cruisers will remain immobilized in the Antilles until June 1943. Again sent in the USA, the Béarn is transformed in aircrafts transport ship and the armament is modified with 4x1 127mm guns, 24x 4x10 40mm Bofors AA guns and 26x1 20mm Oerlikon AA guns.
The Béarn operates again as typical aircraft carrier AFAIK during the first stages of the Indochina war in 1945-1946 and ends as pontoon for the submarine crews in Toulon in 1955.
On 31st March 1967 it is definitively condemned and sold to Italians who will dismantle it completely.
Regards,
David
I think it was simply too slow for the requirements of the time.
In 1920 begins the construction of the battleship Béarn and in 1923 the naval command wants it transformed into an aircraft carrier. The new ship with the hull of the battleship is ready for 1927.
22156 - 28400 tons
Length : 182.60m
Width : 27.13m
21.5 knots
Armament : 4x1 155mm guns, 6x1 75mm AA guns, 8x1 37mm AA guns, 16x 13.2mm AAMGs, 4x 550mm torpedo tubes
Embarked aircrafts : 40
Crew : 875
Compared to these 21.5 knots the Glorious and Courageous of the Royal Navy could reach 31 knots with 48 embarked planes.
At the beginning of WW2, the Béarn is seen as unable to fulfill its mission and is used as training ship. The embarked aircrafts (Vought V.156F, Loire-Nieuport LN.401/411) are then land-based and are engaged against the German ground troops in May-June 1940.
In May 1940, the Béarn is sent to Halifax (Canada) with the cruisers Emile-Bertin and Jeanne d'Arc to tranport there part of the gold reserves of France.
In the USA the Béarn loads 90 aircrafts :
• 44 Curtiss SBC4 Helldiver (SBC4)
• 15 Curtiss H75 A4
• 6 Brewster B 339 (export version of the Buffalo - to be delivered to Belgium which ordered 40 of them)
• 25 Stinson 105 (Voyager)
On its side, the cruiser Jeanne d'Arc loads also 6 Curtiss H75 fighters.
All these aircrafts are unloaded on 19th July 1940 at Fort de France in Guadeloupe (where the ships arrived on 27th June 1940), except the 6 Curtiss H75 of the Jeanne d'Arc which are unloaded in Pointe à Pitre. The 6 fighters are parked in a field and the French Navy dismounted the .50 HMGs for its own use.
The Béarn and the 2 cruisers will remain immobilized in the Antilles until June 1943. Again sent in the USA, the Béarn is transformed in aircrafts transport ship and the armament is modified with 4x1 127mm guns, 24x 4x10 40mm Bofors AA guns and 26x1 20mm Oerlikon AA guns.
The Béarn operates again as typical aircraft carrier AFAIK during the first stages of the Indochina war in 1945-1946 and ends as pontoon for the submarine crews in Toulon in 1955.
On 31st March 1967 it is definitively condemned and sold to Italians who will dismantle it completely.
Regards,
David
Hi DavidI think it was simply too slow for the requirements of the time.
Thank you for your information regarding the Bearn.
My point was that even at 21.5kts this was Ok as a convoy escort carrier, as most of the Escort Carriers were no better, and some were a lot worse in speed and aircraft complement.
I suppose it could be something of a more technical nature or just plain politics!
Regards
Andy H
- Michael Emrys
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- David Lehmann
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Hello,
I don't really know honestly .... perhaps a bit of the speed, a bit politics and a bit because there were already enough escort ships indeed
I just noticed a typo, after refitting there are 6 quadruple Bofors AA mounts = 24 barrels .... I have noted 24x 4x10 or something like that just replace by 6x4
Photos of the Béarn can be seen here :
http://www.alabordache.com/marine/espac ... /photo.php
http://anciendesporteavions.free.fr/Pho ... _bearn.htm
The French Navy in 1939 had also 1 seaplane tender with the Commandant Teste, entering in service in 1932.
Armament :
12x1 100mm AA guns
8x1 37mm AA guns
6x2 13.2mm AAMGs
Crew : 686
with 26 seaplanes and 4 catapultes
Regards,
David
I don't really know honestly .... perhaps a bit of the speed, a bit politics and a bit because there were already enough escort ships indeed
I just noticed a typo, after refitting there are 6 quadruple Bofors AA mounts = 24 barrels .... I have noted 24x 4x10 or something like that just replace by 6x4
Photos of the Béarn can be seen here :
http://www.alabordache.com/marine/espac ... /photo.php
http://anciendesporteavions.free.fr/Pho ... _bearn.htm
The French Navy in 1939 had also 1 seaplane tender with the Commandant Teste, entering in service in 1932.
Armament :
12x1 100mm AA guns
8x1 37mm AA guns
6x2 13.2mm AAMGs
Crew : 686
with 26 seaplanes and 4 catapultes
Regards,
David
There were plans to convert her to a flush deck carrier but these never came about.The French Navy in 1939 had also 1 seaplane tender with the Commandant Teste, entering in service in 1932.
France also had the WW1 Seaplane tender Rouen,which was captured by the Germans in 1940, converted to a Minelayer (renamed Wullenwever), and scrapped in 1946
France also had Joffre & Painleve on the stocks when war broke out, and eventually both ships were scrapped on the slips. Both ships were to have some 40ac's each
Regards
Andy H
- David Lehmann
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Hello Andy,
AFAIK the Rouen was not in service anymore in 1939 and had been retired.
Two new aircraft carriers for the navy should have been available in 1941-1942 ("Joffre" and "Painlevé") :
• 18,000t
• 236m long
• 34m wide
• Speed 33 knots
• Embarking 40 aircrafts (15 fighters and 25 attack aircrafts)
• Armament : 8x 130mm AA guns, 8x 37mm AA guns, 28x 13.2mm AAMGs
• Crew : 70 officers, 1180 NCOs and men
The "Joffre" construction started in March 1940 but reached only 20% before the armistice. It could have been released at the best around end 1940. The "Painlevé" was never started.
The aircrafts intended for these new aircraft carriers were :
• Fighters : Dewoitine D.790 (navalized version of the Dewoitine D.520)
• Several twin-engined attack aircrafts (which is new on an aircraft carrier at the moment) :
--o CAO 600 (Constructions Aéronautiques de l’Ouest) (380 km/h)
--o Dewoitine D.750 (360 km/h)
--o Bréguet 810 (derived from the Bréguet 693 attack aircraft)
• Other single engined attack aircrafts :
--o Latécoère 299 (350 km/h) (derived from the Latécoère 298 seaplane)
Regards,
David
AFAIK the Rouen was not in service anymore in 1939 and had been retired.
Two new aircraft carriers for the navy should have been available in 1941-1942 ("Joffre" and "Painlevé") :
• 18,000t
• 236m long
• 34m wide
• Speed 33 knots
• Embarking 40 aircrafts (15 fighters and 25 attack aircrafts)
• Armament : 8x 130mm AA guns, 8x 37mm AA guns, 28x 13.2mm AAMGs
• Crew : 70 officers, 1180 NCOs and men
The "Joffre" construction started in March 1940 but reached only 20% before the armistice. It could have been released at the best around end 1940. The "Painlevé" was never started.
The aircrafts intended for these new aircraft carriers were :
• Fighters : Dewoitine D.790 (navalized version of the Dewoitine D.520)
• Several twin-engined attack aircrafts (which is new on an aircraft carrier at the moment) :
--o CAO 600 (Constructions Aéronautiques de l’Ouest) (380 km/h)
--o Dewoitine D.750 (360 km/h)
--o Bréguet 810 (derived from the Bréguet 693 attack aircraft)
• Other single engined attack aircrafts :
--o Latécoère 299 (350 km/h) (derived from the Latécoère 298 seaplane)
Regards,
David
Hi DavidAFAIK the Rouen was not in service anymore in 1939 and had been retired
From the same source as my original post, it states that she was returned to her original owners in 1919, but taken over again in 1939, though used as a ammunition ship, served at Dunkirk,before being captured by the Germans.
So I would guess she wasn't used as a seaplane carrier.
Thank you for that clarification, though I believe a third ship had been authorised but never begun?The "Joffre" construction started in March 1940 but reached only 20% before the armistice. It could have been released at the best around end 1940. The "Painlevé" was never started.
Regards
Andy H
- David Lehmann
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- David Lehmann
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Hi Andy,
AFAIK the construction never started but I can be wrong, I will have to find specialized books to give you more info.
I was also unable to find the Rouen in the French Navy OOB of 1939-1940 but perhaps were all the auxiliaries ships not listed.
If I find additional data I will add them but perhaps Igor Geiller who is a Navy fan and also member of the forum could help
Regards,
David
AFAIK the construction never started but I can be wrong, I will have to find specialized books to give you more info.
I was also unable to find the Rouen in the French Navy OOB of 1939-1940 but perhaps were all the auxiliaries ships not listed.
If I find additional data I will add them but perhaps Igor Geiller who is a Navy fan and also member of the forum could help
Regards,
David
- Igor Geiller
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Hi David and Andy
Are you interested by informations about French aircraft carriers projects ?
The "Clémenceau" was a battleship, the 3rd unit of the "Richelieu" class. This warship was under construction in 1940 in Brest and never achieved because of the german invasion. The hull was sunk by american aircrafts in 1944.David Lehmann wrote:A third aircraft carrier called "Clémenceau" was AFAIK indeed planned, but it should have been produced only in 1943.
It's always a pleasure to help.If I find additional data I will add them but perhaps Igor Geiller who is a Navy fan and also member of the forum could help
Are you interested by informations about French aircraft carriers projects ?
- Igor Geiller
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Hi Andy
Nevertheless, it would be probably necessary to build an other aircraft carrier, because the "Béarn" was too old and might be transform into a seaplane tender.
On this website you can see plans, models and picture of the "Joffre" (under construction in Saint-Nazaire, 1940):
http://site.voila.fr/warshipsdesign/Hom ... 7337259375
Regards
Igor
No, there were just 2 aircraft carriers of the "Joffre" class planned, the "Joffre" and the "Painlevé".Andy H wrote:.So was there a 3rd Carrier of the Joffre class planned, and what was its proposed name (if it ever got that far)?
Nevertheless, it would be probably necessary to build an other aircraft carrier, because the "Béarn" was too old and might be transform into a seaplane tender.
On this website you can see plans, models and picture of the "Joffre" (under construction in Saint-Nazaire, 1940):
http://site.voila.fr/warshipsdesign/Hom ... 7337259375
Regards
Igor
Re: French aircraft carrier Bearn
Besides politics, there are some other questions: the Allies had trouble trusting French navy personnel, since there were many pro-German elements to be found there-> the risk of having a spy/traitor in a vessel escorting convoys was not deemed a good idea.
But more importantly, the Bearn was very much an outdated vessel-> the elevator(s) were outdated and lacked the proper dimensions for use of all aircraft.
Also, the landing deck, overall dimensions and also its performance made her a very pilot-unfriendly vessel, for pilots flying modern aircraft.
Thus, this vessel might as well have been scrapped in the fourties; after the 20s, her career was already finished. very much a prestigious object, and a serious waste of money, that could have been used much better by speeding up construction of the Joffre, intended to replace her (but never came to be).
But more importantly, the Bearn was very much an outdated vessel-> the elevator(s) were outdated and lacked the proper dimensions for use of all aircraft.
Also, the landing deck, overall dimensions and also its performance made her a very pilot-unfriendly vessel, for pilots flying modern aircraft.
Thus, this vessel might as well have been scrapped in the fourties; after the 20s, her career was already finished. very much a prestigious object, and a serious waste of money, that could have been used much better by speeding up construction of the Joffre, intended to replace her (but never came to be).