America Remains Member of British Empirre
America Remains Member of British Empirre
I realise that this very much comes under the heading of a "What If" topic, so if it's in the wrong forum I apologise.
Recently I've been deeply involved in reading about America's War of Independence and the War of 1812. And yes, whilst the reasons for both conflicts are convoluted, they do very much stem from the Empire's intransigence regarding taxing the Colonies to the point of strangling the goose that lays the golden egg.
So for the purpose of this post lets assume that Britain shows common sense in it's dealings with America, with the result that America remains as part of the Empire.
So the 'what if' takes the form of two scenario's.
As such America, like Australia, Canada, South Africa and other colonies, comes to the aid of Britain when WWI erupts in 1914. With it's huge manpower resources it can field a massive army in France within 6 months, changing the whole course of the War. And quite probably ending it far more quickly. Admittedly that army, like all Triple Entente forces in 1914 would be raw, but experience would grow quickly and equally as it did with British, Australian and Canadian and French forces. Additionally it's industrial power dwarfs the ability of the Central Powers to complete effectively in munitions, it's Navy almost doubles that of Empire forces and air power would explode in terms of crews and equipment.
The result would be a very chastised Germany, dominated by Entente Powers.
The second scenario address WWII.
Would WWII have happened?
Germany was effectively crushed by the Western powers, in no small measure due to the industrial capability and manpower resources of America. With the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party, aims are the same. Despite expansionist aims, would Germany push the Western powers to the point it did in real life? Given the knowledge that if war came between Britain and Germany, America would be in from the very start, would Hitler have risked pressing ahead with lebensraum? Would he have been able to curtail his dreams of domination?
Recently I've been deeply involved in reading about America's War of Independence and the War of 1812. And yes, whilst the reasons for both conflicts are convoluted, they do very much stem from the Empire's intransigence regarding taxing the Colonies to the point of strangling the goose that lays the golden egg.
So for the purpose of this post lets assume that Britain shows common sense in it's dealings with America, with the result that America remains as part of the Empire.
So the 'what if' takes the form of two scenario's.
As such America, like Australia, Canada, South Africa and other colonies, comes to the aid of Britain when WWI erupts in 1914. With it's huge manpower resources it can field a massive army in France within 6 months, changing the whole course of the War. And quite probably ending it far more quickly. Admittedly that army, like all Triple Entente forces in 1914 would be raw, but experience would grow quickly and equally as it did with British, Australian and Canadian and French forces. Additionally it's industrial power dwarfs the ability of the Central Powers to complete effectively in munitions, it's Navy almost doubles that of Empire forces and air power would explode in terms of crews and equipment.
The result would be a very chastised Germany, dominated by Entente Powers.
The second scenario address WWII.
Would WWII have happened?
Germany was effectively crushed by the Western powers, in no small measure due to the industrial capability and manpower resources of America. With the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party, aims are the same. Despite expansionist aims, would Germany push the Western powers to the point it did in real life? Given the knowledge that if war came between Britain and Germany, America would be in from the very start, would Hitler have risked pressing ahead with lebensraum? Would he have been able to curtail his dreams of domination?
Re: America Remains Member of British Empirre
I think it would take a lot longer then 6 months. The British Army is small, the Australian, Canadian, South Africa army's were far smaller. The US would also have a small army if it was part of the British Empire and so there would not be enough weapons, uniforms, experienced trainers/officers/NCOS, etc to create a huge army in just 6 months. Also the US would probably not be as industrial as it was historically since the British discouraged colonial industrialization.As such America, like Australia, Canada, South Africa and other colonies, comes to the aid of Britain when WWI erupts in 1914. With it's huge manpower resources it can field a massive army in France within 6 months, changing the whole course of the War.
Also the US would probably not have as large a population as historically since Britain was not in favor of large amounts of immigration from outside the empire. Do you think the British would be in favor of large numbers of Germans moving to the US?
Depends in part on how the US felt about WW1. WW1 was not very popular in the 1920/1930's, both in Britain and its colonies. Losing huge numbers of men in WW1 especially if they were thrown into battle with just 6 months to be trained and equipped would sour the idea that the US would automatically join Britain in WW2. Little talked about now but the British commonwealth was not that enthusiastic for WW2, Canada for example raised a couple of divisions but didn’t do much to economically to support the war until the shock of the French collapse.Would WWII have happened?
There is much more to think about but this will do for me right now.
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Re: America Remains Member of British Empirre
If the 13 American colonies had not seceded in the 1770s, it does not follow that they would remain British colonies or dominions right through to 1914, let alone 1939. Why would they? US and UK interests and attitudes would still have drawn steadily apart, and the population of the US exceeded that of the UK by 1860, so it is as certain as these things can be that there would be an independent America well before 1914, albeit it might look different in a number of ways if independence had been delayed.
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Re: America Remains Member of British Empirre
Pips,
What an alarming proposition! I almost spat out my over-taxed tea!
That might be interesting for the Rugby World Cup.
Regards
Tom
What an alarming proposition! I almost spat out my over-taxed tea!
And of course, without the US War of Independence, Australians might well speak French and Kiwis might speak Dutch.So for the purpose of this post lets assume that Britain shows common sense in it's dealings with America, with the result that America remains as part of the Empire
That might be interesting for the Rugby World Cup.
Regards
Tom
Re: America Remains Member of British Empirre
Interesting thread. How about this thought- if the US as part of the Empire sent its men it might not have been over that fast because as mentioned they would be raw and needing training and experience, but the war might have been cut in half in time. With Germany in this scenario probably invaded and completely defeated, there would be no doubt about who won the war, the "stab in the back" legend would not have arisen to blame the Social Democrats, Jews and Communists, and Hitler would not have all the hatred to build on to start another war- so if he couldn't make it in the art world he would get a newsstand or something and be a productive citizen.
Best regards,
Bill in Cleveland (Ohio colony)
Best regards,
Bill in Cleveland (Ohio colony)
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Re: America Remains Member of British Empirre
What the new World Colonies are not part of the Empire. Oh dear, there's me thinking her majesty Queen Elizabeth II was only letting the colonials rule themselves because she is a nice lady. Mind you I have heard it said that she does not take kindly to the naughty new worlders leaving the "u" out of words like LABOUR and COLOUR.
Thinking semi-seriously had the colonies not separated then would they have remained British or would there had been a another Anglo- French war where some territory would have been lost to the French? Would the powerhouse of the Empire have moved to the New World and New York or Baltimore or somewhere else become the capital? So many variables to think of. Of course there would have been no Canada, it would be part of the New World Britain.
Thinking semi-seriously had the colonies not separated then would they have remained British or would there had been a another Anglo- French war where some territory would have been lost to the French? Would the powerhouse of the Empire have moved to the New World and New York or Baltimore or somewhere else become the capital? So many variables to think of. Of course there would have been no Canada, it would be part of the New World Britain.
Clive
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Re: America Remains Member of British Empirre
No, no, no. There would have been no United States, it would be part of Canada.Of course there would have been no Canada, it would be part of the New World Britain.
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Re: America Remains Member of British Empirre
If the US remained as part of the Empire, could that '...peculiar institution...' issue been resolved without all the bloodshed?
Thanks,
USS ALASKA
Thanks,
USS ALASKA