Most Successful Fleet

Discussions on all aspects of the United States of America during the Inter-War era and Second World War. Hosted by Carl Schwamberger.
User avatar
Pips
Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: 26 Jun 2005, 09:44
Location: Country NSW, Australia

Most Successful Fleet

#1

Post by Pips » 13 Apr 2010, 12:01

Just wondering which US Pacific Fleet was the most successful in terms of enemy ships sunk, aircraft destroyed etc - the 3rd under Halsey, or the 5th under Spruance?

Yes, I do realise that they are effectively the same ships involved (excluding those replaced due to damage, leave etc) but the command structure changed dramatically with each accession of command, which also changed just how aggressively deployed they were in battle.

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#2

Post by mescal » 13 Apr 2010, 14:39

Hello,

It is also very dependent on the periods of command - that is, Halsey made many kills during the Philippines campaign, but one may arge that it was because the IJN decided to make her last stand here.
So some his victories came not only from his decisions, but also from the decision of the enemy.
In the end, it may give a glimpse at the aggressiveness of the commander, but I'm not sure it's really significant.


Anyway, here are some data I have.
It's not an exhaustive list of the respective successes of 3rd and 5th Fleet, but here is what I can gather on the enemy warships they sank.
Note that there probably lacks some ships - and sometime it's difficult to assign proper credit for a sinking (for example, Tama was sunk by a submarine, but after being severely damaged by aircraft from TF 38)

I only deal with enemy major warships - that is cruisers, battleships and carriers.
I have somewhere data which could enable me to do the same for the destroyers, but it will take me some time, as the data are arranged in a quite different way.

And I do not have data regarding the number of enemy aircraft shot down.


3rd Fleet:

Active :
March 43 -> Dec 43
Sept 44 -> Jan 45
Jun 45 - > Sep 45
Total : 18 months

Major Operations :
* Solomons Campaign
CL Jintsu (July) & Sendai (November) sunk
Raid on Rabaul : CA Atago, Maya, Takao, Mogami; CL Agano, Yubari damaged (22 moths total repair/unavailable time)

* Prelude to Philippines (Sept 44) :
No major warship sunk

* Philippines :
BB Musashi; CV Zuikaku, CVL Zuiho, Chitose, Chiyoda; CA Kumano, Nachi; CL Noshiro, Kiso sunk
CA Myoko, BB Yamato, Nagato damaged

* Raid in South China sea:
No major warship sun - many merchantmen sunk

* Okinawa (end) :
No major warship sunk

* Raids on Japan :
Destruction of the remains of IJN
CV Amagi, BB Ise, Hyuga, Haruna, CA Aoba, Tone, CL Oyodo CVE Kaiyo sunk




5th Fleet

Active:
Jan 44 -> Aug 44
Feb 45 -> May 45
Total : 12 months

* Raid on Rabaul:
CL Agano, Katori, Naka, 3 or 4 DDs & ~30 merchantmen sunk

* Marianas Campaign:
CVL Hiyo, 3 Fleet oiler sunk
CV Zuikaku, CVL Junyo, Chiyoda damaged

* Iwo Jima
No major warship sunk

* Okinawa (April-May):
BB Yamato, CL Yahagi, 4 DD sunk.
Olivier


Delta Tank
Member
Posts: 2512
Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 02:51
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#3

Post by Delta Tank » 13 Apr 2010, 15:34

Mescal,

The 7th Fleet also sank some ships, do you have those numbers? I want to thank-you for all the hard work you did, it must of been very tedious!! You should be a staff officer!!

Mike

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#4

Post by mescal » 13 Apr 2010, 16:03

Just off the top of my head :

Philippines Campaign :
BB Fuso, Yamashiro; CA Mogami; CL Abukuma, Kinu and at least 4 destroyers (3 at Surigao, 1 at Ormoc Bay)

After November 44, there were not many Japanese warships in the area of 7th Fleet.

You should be a staff officer
Naah. I've trouble with authority and hierarchy. :D
Research is far better place for me.
Olivier

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3776
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 20:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#5

Post by Takao » 13 Apr 2010, 22:47

For the 7th Fleet can be added the Japanese CAs Chokai, Chikuma, and Suzuya. All were sunk during the Battle off Samar.

You can also see the different operations involving TF 38 & 58 here:
http://pacific.valka.cz/forces/tf38.htm
http://pacific.valka.cz/forces/tf58.htm

User avatar
Pips
Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: 26 Jun 2005, 09:44
Location: Country NSW, Australia

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#6

Post by Pips » 14 Apr 2010, 00:17

Excellent information, many thanks guys! :)

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008, 15:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#7

Post by mescal » 14 Apr 2010, 10:26

Hello,

Thank you Takao for pointing that I forgot a little known naval battle when listing 7th Fleet successses ;-)


You'll find below a tentative list of Japanese destroyers sunk sorted by the US Fleet which sank them.
Note that these data are not 100% sure : I do not have the "administrative" attachement of the Allied units, so I had to cross geographic, time and nature of hit criteria to get this list.
Hopefully there are no mistake but the lists could well be incomplete.


3rd Fleet
29 destroyers sunk + 2 unconfirmed
Hatsuharu, Wakaba, Shimakaze, Kawakaze, Arashi, Hagikaze, Yugumo, Makinami, Onami, Yugiri, Naganami, Suzumani, Fujinami, Okinami, Hamanami, Hayashimo, Akishimo, Akebono, Kuroshio, Kagero, Oyashio, Hatsukaze, Nowaki, Satsuki, Minegumo, Hatsuzuki, Wakatsuki, Tachibana, Nashi,
perhaps 3rdF: Hatakaze, Akizuki


5th Fleet
9 destroyers sunk
Tachikaze, Matsu, Asashimo, Maikaze, Isokaze, Hamakaze, Fumizuki, Kasumi, Oite


7th Fleet
8 destroyers sunk + 1 unconfirmed
Michishio, Asagumo, Yamagumo, Kiyoshimo, Uranami, Shiranuhi, Kuwa, Hinoki,
Uzuki ?
Olivier

User avatar
Kingfish
Member
Posts: 3348
Joined: 05 Jun 2003, 17:22
Location: USA

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#8

Post by Kingfish » 15 Apr 2010, 00:48

I think 5th fleet gets the nod for their annihilation of IJN airpower in the Marianas turkey shoot. Although the quality of the Japanese airmen was lacking, it was still a force of 400+, and thus the IJN was still a force to be reckoned with.

After that the remaining fleet units were basically meat on the allied table, and it was only due to the incompetence of Halsey that operation SHO-GO 1 managed to inflict as much damage as it did.

User avatar
Pips
Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: 26 Jun 2005, 09:44
Location: Country NSW, Australia

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#9

Post by Pips » 15 Apr 2010, 01:11

Outstanding information mescal, simply brilliant! :)

So while it seems that the 5th under Spruance basically destroyed Japanese naval air power, the 3rd under Halsey sealed the fate of Japanese naval forces. Spruance had his opportunities, but caution lost him that. And so was criticised. Yet Halsey, who threw caution to the wind, was also criticised for his actions at Leyte Gulf.

Seems Admirals can never win.

Interestingly the man most likely to pour disdain and contempt on any admiral for failing him, MacArthur, never had a bad word to say against Halsey at Leyte Gulf.

Delta Tank
Member
Posts: 2512
Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 02:51
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#10

Post by Delta Tank » 15 Apr 2010, 17:00

MacArthur really liked Halsey, I don't have the quote in front of me, but one night at dinner during the Luzon Campaign (I think) someone was critizing Halsey and MacArthur got extremely angry and stated something along the lines "he is a fighter". Another little known fact, MacArthur had a brother Arthur MacArthur who was a Captain in the US Navy and died in the 1920 of an appendicitis. Speculation was that if he had lived he would of been of very high rank during World War II.

Now back to Halsey. Why didn't he leave some sort of force or at least keep the straight under surveillance? He had a large enough force to leave something there.

Mike

binder001
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: 07 Jan 2010, 18:11
Location: Nebraska, USA

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#11

Post by binder001 » 15 Apr 2010, 17:17

Delta Tank wrote: Now back to Halsey. Why didn't he leave some sort of force or at least keep the straight under surveillance? He had a large enough force to leave something there.Mike
There's the million-dollar question! That very subject has been the subject of endless debate and speculation in print and on the internet since the event occurred. You'll soon have a 20-page thread if you go down that path :-)

By the way - I suggest that a fleet's "success" is based on much more than how many enemy hulls it put under. Spruance and the Fifth Fleet off the Mariannas effectively destroyed Japanese carrier aviation and protected a truly strategic landing from any naval interference but he didn't actually sink a lot of ships. In a similiar fashion, the little task forces off Guadalcanal didn't sink a lot of ships, but they attrited the Japanese Navy and disputed Japanese sea control, saving the first Pacific offensive. Conversely, in the Atlantic the German U-boats sank a lot of ships but failed in their aim of bringing Britain to the peace table.

Delta Tank
Member
Posts: 2512
Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 02:51
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#12

Post by Delta Tank » 15 Apr 2010, 18:20

Binder001,
Binder001 wrote: By the way - I suggest that a fleet's "success" is based on much more than how many enemy hulls it put under. Spruance and the Fifth Fleet off the Mariannas effectively destroyed Japanese carrier aviation and protected a truly strategic landing from any naval interference but he didn't actually sink a lot of ships. In a similiar fashion, the little task forces off Guadalcanal didn't sink a lot of ships, but they attrited the Japanese Navy and disputed Japanese sea control, saving the first Pacific offensive. Conversely, in the Atlantic the German U-boats sank a lot of ships but failed in their aim of bringing Britain to the peace table.
Japanese carrier aviation just could not compete in anything but a short war. I always thought that the Japanese lost a lot of pilots at Midway, but after reading "Shattered Sword", I guess I was wrong, but apparently they did lose a lot of skilled mechanics that were not easily replaced. However, between Midway and the Guadalcanal Campaign the Japanese Naval arm was destroyed IMHO between attrition, disease, and accidents and they never recovered.

Mike

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3776
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 20:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#13

Post by Takao » 15 Apr 2010, 19:45

Binder001,

Sorry to contradict you, but Japanese naval aviation was destroyed before Spruance led Fifth Fleet in the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot." It was, as Delta Tank says, destroyed during the carrier battles of 1942 and the continuous attrition of the Solomons Campaign. The Japanese carrier force Spruance fought was but a shadow of its former self. While the Japanese had better performing aircraft, those aircraft were also much more demanding on a Japanese pilot's flying ability. At the time of the Marianas Turkey Shoot, the Japanese pilots were mostly "green" aviators, with little carrier experience or flight time. While Spruance's pilots shot down a lot of planes, those they shot down were not the highly trained Japanese aviators that attacked Pearl Harbor.

binder001
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: 07 Jan 2010, 18:11
Location: Nebraska, USA

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#14

Post by binder001 » 15 Apr 2010, 20:16

You're both quite right. Midway hurt the Japanese carrier aviation badly, but the brutal attrition in the Solomons used up more of the experienced pilots and kept them from rebuilding their force. The IJN had managed to gather planes and pilots (although quite a few were "green") for the Marianas strike, but after that their remaining carriers were a shadow force - carriers with virtually no pilots. THe "Mariana's Turkey Shoot" was the nail in the coffin.

On the good news - having only a dozen or two planes on each carrier made spotting the deck an easier evolution! :-)

User avatar
Pips
Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: 26 Jun 2005, 09:44
Location: Country NSW, Australia

Re: Most Successful Fleet

#15

Post by Pips » 16 Apr 2010, 00:12

In the Carrier battles of 1942 the focus always fix's on Midway. Understandable, given that the Japanese lost four major Fleet carriers. But pilot losses were relatively light.

It was the battles of Coral Sea, Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz that effectively sealed the fate of the skilled attack pilots of the Japanese Carrier Air Arm. As much as Guadalcanal and the path up the Solomons was the meat-grinder that drained the skilled fighter pilots of the IJN.

Post Reply

Return to “USA 1919-1945”