The organization of US heavy armored division

[Kelvin]

Hi, I am looking for the organization of US heavy 2nd and 3rd armored divisions, e.g how many Sherman and Stuart they had ? how many M-8 and half track they had ? and how they organized ? like how many armored infantry battalion and SP battalion they had ? someone could help on that ?

[Carl Schwamberger]

I've copies of Staunton's OB book & the relevant US Army Green book & can extract details from those, tho it is time consuming. Here are links to a web site that will give you the general sketch for a start.

for 1940

http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/013_usa ... v-arm.html

1942

http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/013_usa ... -armd.html

1943

http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/013_usa ... -armd.html

Here you can find details for the Armored Infantry Battalion

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Uni ... s_army.htm

[JamesL]

Another link which might be helpful.

US armored divisions: the European theater of operations, 1944-45 by Steven J. Zaloga.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vVV4pG ... on&f=false

I gather an official TO&E was not issued for the US 2nd and 3rd Armored Divisions.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Originally they were organized under the 1940 TO&E, which seems to have had a lot of "provisional" lines or items. The 1942 version settled most of that. Later in 1943 It was requested by someone in the UK that the two not be reorganized to the 1943 standard. There were changed made so the equipment & exact organization differed from the Documents for the 1942 version. Task organization meant the actual combat commands & task forces only vaugely resembled what was on paper.

I'll have a hour or so to spare tonight to pick through Stanton & the Green Book, so let me know if you need the gritty details.

[Kelvin]

Hi, Carl, I would like to know the number of tanks in heavy armored division and how they organized ? Thank

[RichTO90]

I gather an official TO&E was not issued for the US 2nd and 3rd Armored Divisions.

Hi James,

Yes it was issued. It was the March 1942 TO&E 17.

Seriously, the only theater change authorized for the 2nd and 3rd AD was the addition of 105mm-armed M4 Assault Guns in the fall of 1944 (I can dig out dates if you want them) and substitution of the 57mm AT gun for the 37mm (although the 37mm were held onto for some time and were the basis for some oddly halftrack/gun lashups before they were essentially discarded). Besides that there were the standard change authorizations for bulldozer kits. In summary what I have found over the years in the ETOUSA (SHAEF) AFV&W Section and the First Army (12th Army Group) Armored Section files is this:

On or about 28 November 1944 the authorized TE for armor units was changed. However, replacement vehicles sufficient to enable this change to occur were not available until late January and early February 1945.

1. The number of M-8 HMC in the light armored division was reduced from 17 to 8. Only the assault gun troop in the cavalry reconnaissance squadron retained theirs.
2. The number of M-4 105mm tanks in the light armored division was increased from 18 to 27. It was intended that they would replace the M-8 HMC in the armored infantry battalion assault gun platoon.
3. At the same time the 2nd and 3rd Armored Division retained 15 M-8 HMC.
4. The authorization of M-4 105mm tanks in the 2nd and 3rd Armored Division was confirmed as 27.

It appears that the TE authorization for dozer blades to equip tank dozers was approximately 6 per separate tank battalion, 18 per light armored division, and 12 in the 2nd and 3rd Armored Division.

The TE authorization for armored recovery vehicles was also modified. The separate tank battalion remained at 5, but the light armored division increased to 24 and the 2nd and 3rd Armored Division to 37.

Cheers!

[Pips]

Just a question if I may. The talk here is of a 'heavy' armoured Division. Were US armoured division's split between heavy and light? To what purpose?

[Carl Schwamberger]

Pips... the terms "heavy" & "light" differentiate between the larger 1940 & 1942 organization & the smaller 1943 organization. The reduction from twelve to nine medium tank companies & from six to three light tank companies in the tank battalions reflected training experience that showed the larger organization to awkward for the intended role as a fast exploitation & raiding unit. Both the older large & smaller reorganized 1943 divisions were to use the same basic doctrine.

In actual operations in Tunisia, Italy, France, & Germany the larger 1st 2d & 3rd Armored Divisions frequently had a portion of the tanks operating in a group or Combat Command seperate from the armored division, either as a sort of mini division, or in conjunction with a infantry division.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Hi, Carl, I would like to know the number of tanks in heavy armored division and how they organized ? Thank

Thats manageable. I dont have a scanner, otherwise you would have had it with my first post.

Refer back to this illustration: http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/013_usa ... -armd.html

Tanks were in two regiments each regiment had two medium & one light battalion. Each battalion had three companies

Each company had 17 tanks, so 12 medium tank companys x17 = 204 medium
...plus two medium tanks in the battalion HQ, so four medium tank battalions x2 +204 = 212

The two light tank battalions had the same numbers, so they totaled 106

Seventeen more light tanks were in the division reconissance battalion, bringing the division total to 318

A few others were allocated to the regiment, division & Combat Command HQ; as commanders tanks & in a replacement reserve.

[JamesL]

Pips - the US Army had 16 armored divisions during the war. After 1942 two divisions (the 2nd and 3rd Armored) were considered 'heavy' and the rest were considered 'light'.

The 'heavy' division had about 232 medium tanks and 14,488 men. As time went on it dropped down to about 200 medium tanks. They operated on the regimental system.

The 'light' divisions had about 186 medium tanks and 10,670 men....... which dropped down to about 150 mediums. They operated by battalions.

As a side note, in 1939 the US Army military attache in Berlin, Major Percy Black, somehow picked up copies of the German operations manuals for panzer divisions. They were promptly translated into English for use by the American forces.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Pips - the US Army had 16 armored divisions during the war. After 1942 two divisions (the 2nd and 3rd Armored) were considered 'heavy' and the rest were considered 'light'.

The 1st Armored does not seem to have converted until the latter part of 1944.

As a side note, in 1939 the US Army military attache in Berlin, Major Percy Black, somehow picked up copies of the German operations manuals for panzer divisions. They were promptly translated into English for use by the American forces.

German Army officers probablly gave it to him. They were usually trying to ingratiate themselves to US representatives. As a Major the later General Wedemeyer attended the Kriegsakademie 1936-38 & participated in the large scale 1938 manuvers. He returned to the US with a large library of German military publications. Study of other nations armies was expected of US Army officers in those days & professional publications like the Infantry or Artillery Journals routinely had articles translated from other armies publications and school papers. In the 'Field Artillery Journal' I found items from US Army officers who had been stationed a year or two with Japanese, French, and British field units & staff schools. Also articles from Brit, French & Italian officers posted to US Army units & schools.

[JamesL]

The US attaches also traveled with the German Army when it invaded Poland and France. In France they interviewed British officers taken prisoner. I'd love to see those reports.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Also just remembered a report from 1937 or 1938 of a Brit Army officer, published in the Journal of Royal Artillery, describng the operations of the German armored division he had observed that year. Evidently the German were trying hard to show off their new toys.

[Pips]

Thanks for the replies guys! Appreciate it.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Hope there is sufficient detail. One thing that is not clear in the books is the exact number of 'spares' actually authorized for the armored div & its components. Stanton remarks in his text the 'full strength' would be 390 "tanks" but of course this does not match the strength of the battalions/squadrons from either the tables or calculation. Neither is it clear what Stanton is counting as a tank in this statement. If Howitzer Motor Carriages are included the the higher number makes sense