TOE of Armored Combat Engineers in Heavy Divisions

[usgrant]

I would appreciate as much detail as possible on the TOE of the Armored Engineer battalion of a heavy divison.

Breakdown of the HHC, battalion recon platoon, individual companies, platoons, and squads.

I have seen gross numbers for the battalion in 1942. In addition to a detailed breakdown, I would be interested in any insight as to how the battalion dealt with the wealth of 37mm AT guns (27) in the battalion as the years went by. Were they all towed? Did they upgrade to the 57mm?

I have trolled the net to no avail so far.

I am modding a scenario based on the actions of the 3rd Armored Division in the vicinity of Hotton, Belgium east to Manhay

Thank you for your time

[Gary Kennedy]

These are the overall details for the Armd Engr Bn, based on the March 1942 T/O -

HQ & HQ Co -

Bn HQ, consisting of;

Command Sec (6 officers, 12 enlisted men) + 3 halftracks, 1 sedan and 2 Jeeps
Personnel Sec (2 offrs*, 8 EM * includes 1 WO) + 1 truck
Intel Sec (3 EM) + 1 jeeps
Ops Sec (11 EM) + 2 h/t and 1 jeep
Supply Sec (1 offr, 11 EM) + 2 trucks
Div Engr Sec (2 offr*, 7 EM * includes 1 WO) + 1 h/t and 1 jeep

Co HQ, consisting of;

HQ Sec (1 offr, 13 EM) + 1 h/t, 2 M/Cs, 1 jeep
Maint Sec (7 EM) + 1 h/t
AM&S Sec (18 EM) + 3 trucks, 3 jeeps and 1 'SP Atk gun'

Recn Pl, consisting of;

Pl HQ (1 offr, 7 EM) + 2 trucks and 2 jeeps
Three Recn Secs, each (1 offr, 5 EM) + 2 jeeps
Three Sqds, each (12 EM) + 1 h/t * also 2 towed 37-mm atk guns across all three Squads

Tpt Pl, consisting of;

Pl HQ (1 offr, 2 EM) + 1 jeep
Tpt Sec (25 EM) + 11 trucks and 1 'SP Atk gun'
Bn Maint Sec (1 offr, 16 EM) + 2 h/t, 2 trucks and 1 jeep

Total, HQ & HQ Co; 16 offrs, 2 WOs and 191 EM

Armd Engr Co -

Co HQ, consisting of;

HQ Sec (2 offr, 14 EM) + 1 h/t, 2 M/Cs and 2 jeeps
Engr Sec (17 EM) + 1 truck, 1 6-ton truck with winch and 1 jeep
Maint Sec (9 EM) + 1 h/t and 1 jeep
AM&S Sec (19 EM) + 4 trucks and 1 'SP Atk gun'

Three Pls, each consisting of;

Pl HQ (1 offr, 10 EM) + 2 trucks and 2 Jeeps
Three Sqds, each (12 EM) + 1 h/t * also 2 towed 37-mm atk guns across all three Squads

Total, Armd Engr Co; 5 offrs, 197 EM

I don't have the Bridging Co T/O, but have the totals as 4 offrs and 153 EM.

The 1942 Armd Engr Bn was based on a HQ & HQ Co, four Engr Cos and a Br Co, so was extremely strong at 1174 all ranks. All trucks listed above were 2.5-tons unless specified. The SP atk gun was intended to be the 37-mm on the 3/4-ton truck, but was to be substituted by a jeep and 37-mm towed weapon.

There were lots of intriguing amendments made to the Armd Divs using the 1942 'heavy org', but finding details is extremely difficult (I'm interested in the Armd Inf Coys myself!). I recall reading of a D Co with one of the ETO based Divs, so presume they kept their fourth Co. The allocation of 37-mm guns to Engr and other elements of the Div may have continued if units decided to keep the kit, but outside of the Armd Inf and Div HQ I don't think they were all upgraded to 57-mm.

Hope that's some help anyway. If you're after real detail you can either tracj down copies of the T/Os from the USAMHI, or get the books by JJ Hays on the US Armd Divs, which will give you the same detail.

Gary

[JamesL]

I assume you have seen these links to the US Army 1944 T/O&E's.

http://www.militaryresearch.org/freebies.htm#Army WWII

[Steve Wilcox]

I assume you have seen these links to the US Army 1944 T/O&E's.

http://www.militaryresearch.org/freebies.htm#Army WWII

He's looking for the earlier one 2nd Armored Division used. The "T/O 5-215, 1 March 1942" which was "Supplemented by T/BA 5, March 1 1942 and T/E 5-215-M, plus subordinate company T/E dated 8 April 1943" and "Change 1 23 July 1942" to be specific. That's what 2nd and 3rd Armored continued to use instead of switching to the later ones.

[JamesL]

So we are looking for info re: the 17th Armored Engineer Battalion, 2nd Armored Division and the 23rd Armored Engineer Battalion, 3rd Armored Division?

[usgrant]

There were lots of intriguing amendments made to the Armd Divs using the 1942 'heavy org', but finding details is extremely difficult (I'm interested in the Armd Inf Coys myself!). I recall reading of a D Co with one of the ETO based Divs, so presume they kept their fourth Co. The allocation of 37-mm guns to Engr and other elements of the Div may have continued if units decided to keep the kit, but outside of the Armd Inf and Div HQ I don't think they were all upgraded to 57-mm.

Hope that's some help anyway. If you're after real detail you can either tracj down copies of the T/Os from the USAMHI, or get the books by JJ Hays on the US Armd Divs, which will give you the same detail.

Gary

Thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for.

I have read that there was at least one M3 37mm at Hotton during the Ardennes Offensive. Firing cannister and HE it would certainly beef up the firepower of a battalion that lacked mortars.

All I have on the armored infantry is from Tony Chadwick and Carl Nafziger, and neither mention a fourth rifle company. No mention of a fourth company in the after-action reports I have been reading from 3rd Armored units. Hard to imagine Gen. McNair allowing anything square in a US division.

I haven't visited the website of USAMHI in some time. I should find out how to go about getting analog copies of these materials. Now that Nafziger's work is available for free at CARL, not to mention the rest of their collection, I have been spending free time there.

[Gary Kennedy]

Glad that's some help. It was the Armd Engrs I was referring to as being 'square' in the old Heavy org (rather than the Armd Inf, who kept three Rifle Coys under both sets of T/Os), at least until the Armd Divs got a haircut in late 1943!

Gary

[usgrant]

Glad that's some help. It was the Armd Engrs I was referring to as being 'square' in the old Heavy org (rather than the Armd Inf, who kept three Rifle Coys under both sets of T/Os), at least until the Armd Divs got a haircut in late 1943!

Gary

Was just reading about the haircut in the Army Ground Forces Study: Reorganization of Ground Troops for Combat. The infantry forces got quite a boost in the number of men assigned as well as more mg's and bazookas.

Without knowing any different (or better) I'm guessing the number of machine guns and bazookas in the heavy div would have drifted north to be more in line with what was assigned to the light division.

[Steve Wilcox]

If you can't find what you're looking for at that website, the book Gary referred to would be this one:
"UNITED STATES ARMY GROUND FORCES :TABLES OF ORGANIZATION AND EQUIPMENT : WORLD WAR II
by J J Hays

Volume 2 : The Armored Division: Part II :
Armored Engineer Battalion, Field Artillery Regiment, Armored Division Artillery, Armored Field Artillery Battalion, Armored Infantry Battalion, Armored Medical Battalion, Ordnance Maintenance Battalion. Armored Signal Company, Armored Division Train. Staff Organisation, Supply System, Equipment Notes, Communications Equipment, Engineer Equipment.
295x210mm ix + 250 + xi pages, 220 tables & illustrated diagrams.
ISBN 978-0-85420-267-6 Hardback Edition £32.99
ISBN 978- 0-85420-272-0 Softback Edition £19.99"

http://www.militarypress.co.uk/us_military_history/index.htm#GroundForces

[Gary Kennedy]

Yep, those are the ones. I think Yves Bellanger is also putting a work together for the 1942 style Armd Div, and may have dug up some nuggets on the changes made to the 1942 T/Os by 1st-3rd Armd Divs. Like Hays I think he'll also have the (then) separate Tables of Equipment, which at least give the allocation of bazookas from early 1943.

I understand the principle that the early Armd Divs remained on the original scales (though 1st Armd updated in July 1944) but always found it odd that there were no changes issued to iron out the details. The Med Tk Bns and the Recn Cos both changed their principle AFVs, which had different crew allocations to the previous equipments, and there was a significant uplift of NCO ranks in the Light scale Armd Divs (most Cpls bumping up to Sgts, Sgts to SSgts and so on), yet no changes or amendments issued. Not very helpful really, but what can you do!

Gary

[usgrant]

If you can't find what you're looking for at that website, the book Gary referred to would be this one:
"UNITED STATES ARMY GROUND FORCES :TABLES OF ORGANIZATION AND EQUIPMENT : WORLD WAR II
by J J Hays

(ellipses)

http://www.militarypress.co.uk/us_military_history/index.htm#GroundForces

Thank you. I will check them out and see if they deliver to the States. Their online caveat seems devoted to the vagaries of the British postal system.

All Carlisle has online at the moment is something like a publicity outfit from 1944. It would probably be faster to spend the money than try to catch on as a volunteer transcriber for Hyperwar or any similar project.