Chief of Staff Choices 1939?

[Carl Schwamberger]

Thanks. From memory that all matched Hollzimmers biography of Krueger. Once again I fail to see any university education. Given the high end staff assingments and a seat at both the Army and navy schools that is fairly impressive. More so by the 1920s when field commisioned officers seldom advanced to the field grade ranks, and those without a college or university schooling seldom advanced at all.

The reason I asked about what commisioning document MacArthur signed is the the final endorsement by a General officers does not necessarily indicate personal connection or intervention. It is usually a administrative task vetted by his staff and stacked in the other papers to sign. In MacArthur were involved in the intiation or recommendation of the commisioning that would mean something else entirely.

[Delta Tank]

Thanks. From memory that all matched Hollzimmers biography of Krueger. Once again I fail to see any university education. Given the high end staff assingments and a seat at both the Army and navy schools that is fairly impressive. More so by the 1920s when field commisioned officers seldom advanced to the field grade ranks, and those without a college or university schooling seldom advanced at all.

The reason I asked about what commisioning document MacArthur signed is the the final endorsement by a General officers does not necessarily indicate personal connection or intervention. It is usually a administrative task vetted by his staff and stacked in the other papers to sign. In MacArthur were involved in the intiation or recommendation of the commisioning that would mean something else entirely.

Carl,

I think that Walter Bedell (Beetle) Smith only graduated from a technical high school as a machinist. As far as I know he never attended college and made it to four star general, head of the CIA and Ambassador to the USSR. Apparently he had basically a photographic memory, that would be a nice gift to have. Krueger's commission was signed by General MacArthur's father General Arthur MacArthur, that is interesting.

Mike

[Steen Ammentorp]

Another was of course Courtney H. Hodges, who was only a cadet a Westpoint for a year (1904-05), dropped out and enlisted as private, later corperal and sergeant before being commissioned in 1909 (only a year later than had he stayed as Westpoint).

[Carl Schwamberger]

Gen. Hodges got a degree from North Georgia College. Bedell Smith attended Beutler University in Indianapolis, but dropped out when his father became ill. Contradictory claims on if he did or did not obtain a degree later. Neither Hollzimmers biography nor the short bios. I've seen offer any claim Krueger attended any civilian colleges or universities .

[Carl Schwamberger]

Hi Carl,

Just in order to show the "candidate" list I have listed the officers senior to Marshall on 1 January 1939. I have listed their date of birth and date of seniority. As seen all with exception of Drum, DeWitt, Rowell, Lear, Beck & Krueger was older than 60 and of course Lear and Beck would also have turned 60 by September 1939 followed closely by Drum.

Major Generals
Malin Craig (5 Aug 1875) (21 Mar 1926) (CoS 2 Oct 1935)
Albert J. Bowley (24 Nov 1875) (20 Feb 1931)
Hugh A. Drum (19 Sep 1879) (1 Dec. 1931)
Lucius R. Holbrook (30 Apr 1875) (28 Dec 1933)
Stanley H. Ford (30 Jan 1877) (1 Mar 1936)
Stanley D. Embick (22 Jan 1877) (1 May 1936)
Herbert J. Brees (12 Jun 1877) (2 May 1936)
James K. Parsons (11 Feb 1877) (1 Jun 1936)
John H. Hughes (4 Feb 1876) (1 Oct 1936)
David L. Stone (15 Aug 1876) (1 Oct 1936)
John L. DeWitt (9 Jan 1880) (1 Dec 1936)
Charles D. Herron (13 Mar 1877) (14 Mar 1937)
Percy P. Bishop (27 May 1877) (1 Jan 1938)
James A. Woodruff (19 Jun 1877) (1 Mar 1938)
Frank W. Rowell (29 Feb 1880) (1 Apr 1938)
Walter C. Sweeney (16 Nov 1876) (1 Jun 1938)
Daniel Van Voorhis (24 Oct 1878) (1 Jul 1938)
Walter S. Grant (24 Jan 1878) (1 Oct 1938)
Ben Lear (12 May 1879) (1 Oct 1938)
William H. Wilson (26 Dec 1877) (1 Oct 1938)
Robert McC. Beck, Jr. (9 May 1879) (1 Nov 1938)

Brigadier Generals
Thomas E. Merrill (15 Oct 1876) (1 Dec 1934)
Robert O. Van Horn (15 Aug 1876) (1 Dec 1933)
Guy V. Henry (28 Jan 1875) (26 Mar 1934)
Charles M. Bundel (2 Jun 1875) (1 Sep 1934)
Dana T. Merrill (15 Oct 1876) (1 Dec 1934)
Evan H. Humphrey (5 Mar 1875) (7 Feb 1935)
Robert C. Foy (20 Aug 1876) (1 Mar 1935)
Charles F. Humphrey (11 Aug 1876) (9 Aug 1935)
Clement A. Trott (14 Dec 1877) (1 Sep 1935)
Duncan K. Major, Jr. (2 Apr 1876) (1 Nov 1935)
Lorenzo D. Gasser (3 May 1876) (17 Jun 1936)
George P. Tyner (26 Apr 1876) (1 Oct 1936)
Walter Krueger (26 Jan 1881) (1 Oct 1936)
Asa L. Singleton (31 Aug 1876) (1 Oct 1936)
George C. Marshall (31 Dec 1880) (1 Oct 1936)

Picking through a few of the biographies it looks like failing health might have made them a poor choice for CoS. several were dead in less than five years.

[Steen Ammentorp]

Hi Carl,

I did know that Hodges attended the North Georgia College; however are you sure that he got a degree? The reason I ask is because the Official Army Register doesn't record any college graduations or degrees in Hodges' entry. I can find him as an enrolled student in 1903 in the "North Georgia College Undergraduate Bulletin", but I can't find him mentioned in the subsequent graduations list, nor is he mentioned in a senior class in "Cyclops" – the yearbook.

[Carl Schwamberger]

I'm certainly not 100%. One corespondent claims confirmation is among Hodges "military record". A 'biographer' refered to the collection of his papers http://eisenhower.archives.gov/Research ... Papers.pdf , tho I dont see much about personal papers in the index. There is a biography by Stephen Wishnevesky published 2006 which hopefully would clarify this one way or another. It is somewhere on on my 'to buy' list.

[Steen Ammentorp]

Hi Carl,

I got the biography by Wishensky and sadly it doesn't enlighten us. It says that Hodges graduated from Perry Public School in June 1903 and managed to enrol in NGAC. He received an appointment to West Point in January 1904, though he was back in Perry 3 months later having flunked geometry. – I doubt that he would be able to get a degree in 7 months

From various sites one gets the impression that Hodges graduated in NGAC in 1909 – though no site that I have seen makes explicit. However Wishnevsky makes no further mention of NGAC and mentions no degree, and as previously said I can't find Hodges name in any graduation list.

Btw. I must say that I rather was disappointed by Wishnevsky's biography. Like most biographies it is biased, but at times it becomes too biased. As suggested above it lacks detailed information on Hodges and Wishnevsky's spends too much space dealing with the "wrong doings" of others, mostly Patton and Montgomery, rather than actually deal with the actions of Hodges.

[Carl Schwamberger]

The description of Wishenskys biography could apply to many I've read of the US Generals. The authors look at a bunch of original documents, them make statements notable for lack of detail, precise or complete quotations, or refrence to exact documents/numbers/dates/locations. ect.. ect... I wonder at time if these guys are sometimes depending on interviews or personal documents which they are prohibited from reproducing or citing.

"From various sites one gets the impression that Hodges graduated in NGAC in 1909". NGAC records might help, if they exist. I've noticed that my attendance & degree from Purdue University are thinly documented & any biographer would have to dig deep to prove it. I participated very liitle in the school life and apperance in things like year books & other secondary documentation is weak. Their task would be complicated by some errors in addresses and name spelling that admin clerks were never able to completely purge from my military record.

Looking over the bios of the other two it looks like all three shared a reputation as 'intellectuals' in the army.

[rcocean]

Ed Gray argues that MacArthur was no friend of Marshall due to an imagined slight in WW1 and had developed some distaste for the "Chaumont Crowd" under Gen Pershing. Apparently Marshall organised the logistics quite well, but MacArthur imagined that Marshall and others were trying to stop him from his great destiny. MacArthur was somewhat of a Primma Donna even then, so I think Ed cray got it spot on.

This is false and has been disproved both by Pogue who wrote Marshall's official biography and D Clayton James who wrote a 3 volume biography of MacArthur. Marshall and MacArthur had little contact before WW2. During WW 1, Marshall was a Colonel Assistant G-3 under Hugh Drum. If MacArthur was so upset at the "Chaumont Crowd" under Gen Pershing in the 1930s its rather strange that he was friends with Drum and Craig - both of whom were more prominent in "the Chaumont crowd" than Marshall.

[rcocean]

Just in order to show the "candidate" list I have listed the officers senior to Marshall on 1 January 1939. I have listed their date of birth and date of seniority. As seen all with exception of Drum, DeWitt, Rowell, Lear, Beck & Krueger was older than 60 and of course Lear and Beck would also have turned 60 by September 1939 followed closely by Drum.

Belated thanks for posting this great information. The backstory on Drum would make an interesting article. He was Marshall's boss in WW1, and came out of the war a General while Marshall didn't achieve that rank until 1936. He was considered for the CoS job in 1930 but lost to Mac, and then became deputy CoS in 1933. He seemed to the be the natural selection in 1935 but the job went to Craig. He campaigned hard and lost to Marshall in '39 - again the runner up.

He was reluctant at first to take the China job in 1942 but came round and almost begged Stimson for it, but Stimson had decided that his initial reluctance would make him a bad choice. Marshall had always been in favor of Stillwell for CBI, and Drum lost out again. Too bad. Stillwell was an excellent combat officer but a bad diplomat. Drum would've been a much better choice.

[rcocean]

The usual story for Krueger is MacArthur had his name on a short list of those he would prefer for eventual command of the US 6th Army. (Precisely why Patch or Echilberger were not his top choice is not clear.) The other story which I heard verbally from WWII veterans is Krueger was feared by or able to intimidate MacArthur. The back story being that if necessary Krueger had the ability to remove him if he thought it necessary.

A final point is Krueger did not publish a self serving biography post war. Had he supported Eichelbergers claims MacArthurs reputation may have been completely destroyed. Instead he avoided public discussion of such matters & his contribution to WWII history raised little excitement.

MacArthur asked for Krueger because he needed a high-ranking US General (Lt. General) to command his Alamo force - and someone equal or superior in rank to the Australian generals. Technically, Blamey was the SWPA Ground commander and only a high ranking US General could operate independently of him. MacArthur also knew Krueger was available since Marshall considered him too old for an overseas command.

I doubt Krueger could have "destroyed MacArthur's Reputation". First, Eichelberger hated Krueger and Krueger didn't much care for Eichelberger. Second, Krueger was a life long pal of MacArthur since he gave him an combat army command and supported him throughout the war.

[Delta Tank]

To All,

What was the mandatory retirement age in World War II? IIRC General Marshall and Admiral King both reached mandatory retirement age during WWII.

Mike

[Carl Schwamberger]

Sixty Four or Sixty five IIRC. However it was effectively suspended since so many flag rank officers received waivers. Health did retire officers, but while the war lasted the capable were allowed to serve a bit longer. DeWitt & Lear were two who health failed during the war. Krueger lasted. Drum was ROAD (Retired On Active Duty) by committing a bone headed political mistake.

[R Leonard]

And just as an aside, the 1900 -1901 time period was an Army push for promotions to or out-right commissions to 2LT. The army was expanding and one could take the examination for a commission. Don't know if Kruger took this route, but I suspect he may have. As commissions out of VMI were not automatic, Marshall took the exam and earned the commission. Oddly, my grandfather, (Pvt 1st DC infantry 16 May 1898 to 20 Nov 1898, Pvt & Corp 21st US Infantry - then in the Philippines - Feb 1899 to Aug 1900) also took the exam and accepted his commissioned 18 Aug 1900. With his commission he transferred to the 22nd Infantry and remained in the Philippines for another tour. Retired at 60 in 935 a Colonel.