Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

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Chepicoro
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Re: Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

#16

Post by Chepicoro » 15 Mar 2016, 07:46

Nickdfresh wrote:Part of the issue is that Allied tanks were usually more exposed and on the offensive, so of course they were going to suffer higher casualties.
At a tactical level I´m agree with you, but as far as I know any retreating army suffered more armor losses than an advancing army since they can not recover repairable armor. A successful offensive minimized the casualties.

I think this had been wholly exaggerated but I think the actual numbers were about a 2:1 kill ratio in favor of German panzers over the Shermans.
I´am curious about this, I have numbers for the loss ratio of allies/axis, germans/soviets, and americans/germans but not for a particular tank. Could you post the source please?

So, yes there was an issue with poor ammo stowage in which wet stowage alleviated, but I think much of the gallows humor of "Ronsons" and whatnot simply comes from Normandy where open fields in the North, defended by heavy concentrations of panzers and tank destroyers, and the bocage in the South of France simply meant the Allies were going to take higher losses no matter what...
There are american and british complains about the Sherman´s inflammability since North Africa and there are soviet complains about the inflammability of american tanks, at least Stalin mentioned this issue to F.D.R. in one letter, but the complain was about the M3 Lee.

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Re: Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

#17

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Mar 2016, 16:12

Chepicoro wrote:I´am curious about this, I have numbers for the loss ratio of allies/axis, germans/soviets, and americans/germans but not for a particular tank. Could you post the source please?
Any such "ratios" are highly speculative at best and completely bogus at worst.
There are american and british complains about the Sherman´s inflammability since North Africa and there are soviet complains about the inflammability of american tanks, at least Stalin mentioned this issue to F.D.R. in one letter, but the complain was about the M3 Lee.
I think you are referring to the internal Soviet memo of January 1943? From Lt.Gen. of Tank Armies Korobkov and Biryukov to Mikoyan? Unless you have discovered a personal letter from Stalin to FDR?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

#18

Post by Michael Kenny » 15 Mar 2016, 18:22

This 'Stalin Letter' is a card he plays all over the net.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /02/42.htm

Message No. 30
I consider it my duty to warn you that, according to our experts at the front, U.S. tanks catch fire very easily when hit from behind or from the side by anti-tank rifle bullets. The reason is that the high-grade gasoline used forms inside the tank a thick layer of highly inflammable fumes. German tanks also use gasoline, but of low grade which yields smaller quantities of fumes, hence, they are more fireproof. Our experts think that the diesel makes the best tank motor.


But given the way the Panther got a reputation as a flamer even without penetrations his whole argument is bogus. All tanks were prone to fires when penetrated.
Best not keep the thread going and give him the chance to resume his bombardment. Being ignored rankles with him

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Re: Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

#19

Post by Richard Anderson » 16 Mar 2016, 01:04

Chepicoro wrote:A loss ratio had to exist, and an approximation is still better than nothing.
Okay. So then if 1,775 Medium Tank M4 (75mm and 76mm) were lost to 20 November 1944 and 883 Panthers were lost to 30 November, then that means the "ratio" was 2 to 1, right?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
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Chepicoro
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Re: Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

#20

Post by Chepicoro » 18 Mar 2016, 06:28

In a more serious issue...
Nickdfresh wrote: I think this had been wholly exaggerated but I think the actual numbers were about a 2:1 kill ratio in favor of German panzers over the Shermans.
Please you have a source for that ratio??

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Re: Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

#21

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Mar 2016, 06:55

The trap is baited:

Chepicoro wrote:
Nickdfresh wrote: I think this had been wholly exaggerated but I think the actual numbers were about a 2:1 kill ratio in favor of German panzers over the Shermans.
Please you have a source for that ratio??
This post here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1988379

is/will be how any figure not to the posters liking will be countered together with lots of excuses about 'non combat' losses.

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Nickdfresh
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Re: Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

#22

Post by Nickdfresh » 18 Mar 2016, 23:10

Chepicoro wrote:
Nickdfresh wrote:Part of the issue is that Allied tanks were usually more exposed and on the offensive, so of course they were going to suffer higher casualties.
At a tactical level I´m agree with you, but as far as I know any retreating army suffered more armor losses than an advancing army since they can not recover repairable armor. A successful offensive minimized the casualties.
Fair point. Also many panzers simply had to be abandoned due to fuel shortages after the Bulge...

I´am curious about this, I have numbers for the loss ratio of allies/axis, germans/soviets, and americans/germans but not for a particular tank. Could you post the source please?
Chepicoro wrote:In a more serious issue...
Nickdfresh wrote: I think this had been wholly exaggerated but I think the actual numbers were about a 2:1 kill ratio in favor of German panzers over the Shermans.
Please you have a source for that ratio??
It was from scratch memory of this thread: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthr ... ited/page2

I think the overall gist is that there were too many Shermans lost to the rather unsexy means such as Teller mines, Panzerfausts, and simply through wear and tear for there to have been such high vaunted loss ratios. Mkenny also listed links here if you read through it, incidentally I haven't reread it yet...

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Re: Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

#23

Post by Sheldrake » 19 Mar 2016, 00:45

The concept of a "loss ratio" implies WW2 as a series of tank v tank duels. However, in WW2 tanks weren't just shot at by tanks or used against tanks. It did take more hits to KO a Panther than a Sherman, because the Panther was bigger and more heavily armoured, which is one reason why there were not as many of them.

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Re: Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

#24

Post by Richard Anderson » 19 Mar 2016, 17:51

Sheldrake wrote:The concept of a "loss ratio" implies WW2 as a series of tank v tank duels. However, in WW2 tanks weren't just shot at by tanks or used against tanks. It did take more hits to KO a Panther than a Sherman, because the Panther was bigger and more heavily armoured, which is one reason why there were not as many of them.
Yep. For example, of 883 First US Army tank losses investigated from June 1944 to May 1945, it was assessed that 440 had been knocked out by "AT Guns" and 78 by "Artillery". The first actually implies weapons smaller than 75mm and the later those 75mm and larger, but neither distinguishes between tanks, tank destroyers, AT guns, or indirect artillery fire. BTW, of the 883, only 337 "burned" while 515 were "repairable".

British figures, which imply distinctions between tanks, assault guns, and AT guns, similarly bandied about but various Internet denizens, are highly anecdotal and problematical, while we have virtually zero data on German cause of loss.

As I said a few days ago, "Any such "ratios" are highly speculative at best and completely bogus at worst." I may add though despite such speculative bogusness, certain Internet denizens continue to spin out tall tales from them.

Cheers!
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
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Re: Origin of the terms "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronsons"

#25

Post by David Thompson » 24 Mar 2016, 03:19

A running exchange of insults between Chepicoro and Richard Anderson was removed. Gentlemen, do not bring misfortune upon yourselves.

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