US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

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Sid Guttridge
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US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#1

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Mar 2016, 15:23

I have seen a photo of US Stuart light tanks at a parade in Newfoundland in WWII. They presumably came from a US base there.

Does anyone know what unit they belonged to, how many of them there were, and how long they were present in Newfoundland?

Many thanks,

Sid.

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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#2

Post by OpanaPointer » 28 Mar 2016, 15:49

This might help.

History of the Participation by Newfoundland in World War II
collections.mun.ca/PDFs/cns_publish/FraserManuscript.pdf
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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#3

Post by LineDoggie » 28 Mar 2016, 17:10

Sid Guttridge wrote:I have seen a photo of US Stuart light tanks at a parade in Newfoundland in WWII. They presumably came from a US base there.

Does anyone know what unit they belonged to, how many of them there were, and how long they were present in Newfoundland?

Many thanks,

Sid.
In US markings? because the US had no Armor unit assigned there
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Richard Anderson
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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#4

Post by Richard Anderson » 28 Mar 2016, 17:16

Sid Guttridge wrote:I have seen a photo of US Stuart light tanks at a parade in Newfoundland in WWII. They presumably came from a US base there.

Does anyone know what unit they belonged to, how many of them there were, and how long they were present in Newfoundland?

Many thanks,

Sid.
This is the only possibility I can see. On 15 February 1942, Company C, 70th Tank Battalion (Light) was detached and embarked for Iceland where it was re-designated the 10th Light Tank Company. It is possible they did a stop over en route at Newfoundland and did a parade morale builder.
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Orwell1984
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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#5

Post by Orwell1984 » 28 Mar 2016, 17:44

There is another possibility.

Tanks from Company A, 2nd Tank Battalion of the USMC.
From this site:

http://www.irdp.co.uk/JohnCrook/iceland.htm
On 24 May 1941, the 6th Marine Regiment in California became the nucleus of a force "for overseas duty." It sailed from San Diego on 31 May and arrived in Charleston, South Carolina on 15 June. The following day the 1st Marine Brigade (Provisional) was officially formed under command of Brigadier General John Marston USMC with the following components:

Brigade Headquarters Platoon

Brigade Band

6th Marines

5th Marine Defense Battalion (less 5-inch Artillery Group)

2nd Battalion, 10th Marines

Company A, 2nd Tank Battalion (less 3rd Platoon) assorted support and service elements

On 22 June, while the German invasion of the Soviet Union commenced, the brigade sailed for Argentia, Newfoundland in four transports and two cargo vessels. The convoy arrived at Argentia on 27 June and there awaited conclusion of negotiations. The American, British, and Icelandic governments resolved the diplomatic niceties and a suitable invitation was issued from Reykjavik on 1 July. The Marines departed Argentia the next morning with a heavy escort (including battleships New York and Arkansas, cruisers Brooklyn and Nashville, and more than a dozen destroyers) and arrived at Reykjavik on 7 July 1941.
They were on holdover in Newfoundland from June 27th until the morning of July 2nd so perhaps they did some morale boosting parades as well during their delay. Not sure how likely it would be for tanks to be unloaded for this purpose but it is another possibility.

From this site http://www.ww2gyrene.org/photoalbum_31.htm

Image
M2A4 Stuart tanks of Company A, 2nd Tank Battalion on parade in Iceland. As part of the 1st Marine Brigade, the tankers of Company A served in Iceland from July 1941 to March 1942.

Seeing the original picture or even an approximate date from it would be a help of course :D

Edited to add :
Was this the picture?
http://www.heritage.nf.ca/articles/poli ... -years.php

Image
American Military Tanks on Parade during American-Canadian Day, 1942
Courtesy of the Maritime History Archive (John Cardoulis Fonds Collection 306, Photo PF 306.202), Memorial University of Newfoundland, St. John's, NL.

The caption date if correct shoots my theory down....back to square one! :D

Richard Anderson
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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#6

Post by Richard Anderson » 28 Mar 2016, 20:18

Orwell1984 wrote:There is another possibility.

Tanks from Company A, 2nd Tank Battalion of the USMC.
To quote the immortal Bart..."Duh-uuh!" :thumbsup:

Thanks for reminding me yet again not to focus exclusively on US Army armor in World War II.

Cheers!
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#7

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Mar 2016, 13:30

Hi Guys,

Thanks very much. Your responses are the sort of thing that makes sites such as AHF so worthwhile.

It looks more than likely that the tanks in the photo I saw, which I think was different from the one Orwell1984 put up (and which was certainly much more grainy), were part of the US Marine Corps detachment en route to Iceland. I will try to find out exactly when "American-Canadian Day" was.

Again, many thanks.

Sid.

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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#8

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Mar 2016, 13:28

Hi Guys,

I have found my photo of Stuart tanks in Newfoundland. It is, in fact, the same one as Orwell1984 put up above, but cut slightly differently and much poorer in quality.

The caption with it on p.18 of Battlefront Newfoundland says, "In 1942, these American military tanks from Fort Pepperell paraded through the streets of St. John's. The occasion was a combined American-Canadian military parade passing Government House on Military Road. The only military tank seen in St. John's prior to WWII was an old tank used to clear snow on Water Street and it was later scrapped for its metal value at the start of WWII. (USN)."

Fort Pepperrell was a US Army base. However, the photo is attributed to the US Navy. So I guess this leaves us little nearer to a definitive answer to my original question.

Battlefront Newfoundland is footnoted (though not in this case) but is mostly a cut-and-paste reproduction from wartime news reports and other post-war publications, so I am not sure how reliable its sourcing is.

Any other ideas?

Cheers,

Sid.

Orwell1984
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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#9

Post by Orwell1984 » 31 Mar 2016, 16:01

Just more to muddy the waters unfortunately.
Image also appears on page 71 of Occupied St John's (http://www.mqup.ca/occupied-st-john-s-p ... 537507.php) captioned "American M3 Stuart tanks on Military Road, All Nations Day parade 1943" source given as Photo #1-45-020, City of St John's archives.

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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#10

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Apr 2016, 13:43

Hi Orwell,

This begins to make them look like Army tanks, as the Marines had been withdrawn from Iceland in 1942.

The ground combat element of the US Army garrison was centred round a battalion of I/3rd Infantry Regiment. I will try to see if it had any attached tanks. It certainly had vehicle-mounted anti-tank guns:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1942Jeep.jpg

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#11

Post by Richard Anderson » 01 Apr 2016, 19:48

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Orwell,

This begins to make them look like Army tanks, as the Marines had been withdrawn from Iceland in 1942.

The ground combat element of the US Army garrison was centred round a battalion of I/3rd Infantry Regiment. I will try to see if it had any attached tanks. It certainly had vehicle-mounted anti-tank guns:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1942Jeep.jpg

Cheers,

Sid.
Yes Sid, it did, the 10th Tank Company, organized from the 70th Tank Battalion's C Company on 15 February 1942 and sent to Iceland. Remember? :D It may have been re-designated the 601st Tank Company later in 1942, but that remains unclear. Confusingly, there was also a DIFFERENT 10th Light Tank Company existing at the same time. It had led an shadow existence for 19 years as the active (but not organized or equipped) tank company of the 1st Cavalry Division until August 1940 when it was finally organized and equipped for the Louisiana Maneuvers. It was re-designated as the 603d Tank Company on 4 December 1942.
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#12

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Apr 2016, 12:33

Hi Richard,

It looks as though at least some 10th Tank Company personnel went elsewhere:

"The 743rd embarked in New York on 17 November 1943 aboard the Aquitania and arrived at Monrock, Scotland on 25 November 1943.[2][3] Soon after its arrival in Great Britain, it was again reorganized in a new Table of Organization, with Companies A, B, and C organized as medium tank companies with M4 Shermans. When Company D was formed as the light tank company with cadre from the medium tank companies and the 10th Tank Company, the unit took on the combat organization in which it would fight on the Continent and was redesignated as the 743rd Tank Battalion on 2 December 1943."

However, this doesn't clarify whether they reached the UK via Iceland directly, or whether there was an intermediate deployment.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#13

Post by Richard Anderson » 02 Apr 2016, 16:52

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Richard,

It looks as though at least some 10th Tank Company personnel went elsewhere:

"The 743rd embarked in New York on 17 November 1943 aboard the Aquitania and arrived at Monrock, Scotland on 25 November 1943.[2][3] Soon after its arrival in Great Britain, it was again reorganized in a new Table of Organization, with Companies A, B, and C organized as medium tank companies with M4 Shermans. When Company D was formed as the light tank company with cadre from the medium tank companies and the 10th Tank Company, the unit took on the combat organization in which it would fight on the Continent and was redesignated as the 743rd Tank Battalion on 2 December 1943."

However, this doesn't clarify whether they reached the UK via Iceland directly, or whether there was an intermediate deployment.

Cheers,

Sid.


Ah, very good and thanks for that. Yes, it solves the question of what happened to the Iceland 10th Tank Company. I've wondered, because they never returned to their original 70th Tank Battalion, which formed a new C Company and also reorganized with a D Company in 1943.

[EDIT} Nope turns out I had the 10th Tank Company also providing personnel for the 70th to organize a D Company as well, on 1 December 1943.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#14

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Apr 2016, 10:21

Hi Richard,

I blithely assumed that they were M3 Stuarts in the photo, but could they be M2 light tanks instead?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=M2+li ... ve&ssui=on

I don't have the expertise easily to distinguish them.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: US Stuart light tanks in Newfoundland in WWII?

#15

Post by Hoist40 » 04 Apr 2016, 13:49

Late model M2 which had a 37mm gun instead of machine gun of earlier M2 had a raised rear idler wheel

M3 which all had a 37mm gun had a lowered rear idler wheel which touched the ground

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