The "practical" use of TD's in Northwest Europe from 6 June 1944 on mirrored the doctrinal changes in place as of 18 July 1944, which in turn were espoused in Training Circulars from the previous year and were already followed in Italy.Nickdfresh wrote:Well, mainly becoming practical after a while.
No, the doctrine evolved quite a bit, from the farcical "Tank Destroyer Commando" of fall and winter 1941, to the first doctrinal statement in March 1942, to the first experiential modifications disseminated through training circulars based on the experience in North Africa and Italy. It was never "quasi-religious" but was more "team spirit" oriented, which is typical of all military organizations.Meh. I understand that the Doctrine evolved somewhat, but I think his overall implication was likening the TD Doctrine to a quasi-religion, a "theological" island of certainty in an ocean of doubt. I'm heavily paraphrasing there but those were his words to affect. Certainly they evolved a bit with what I am assuming would be their observations in the Desert War...
Not at all what I meant. Read the battalion war diaries and see what they were doing. The practice of using SP TD as "assault guns" ended very quickly. The 803d TD illustrates what they learned. While supporting the 29th ID from 16-18 June they lost three M10 GMC to "rifle-grenade fire" (likely Panzerfaust) and one to "bazooka fire" (likely Panzerschreck), which pretty much ended the attempts to use them as "assault guns". Instead they were used primarily as long range direct fire weapons, while the tanks took on the role of "assault gun", which was doctrinally theirs anyway.I think you're twisting yourself in knots of semantics here. Merely by busting the bocage they were inevitably going to engage the enemy at close quarters and open holes for sappers and infantry. If they were used as Rhinos they certainly weren't driving through and over hill-and-dale! They were used as effectively assault guns at points and Gabel states this more or less. I mean, do you think TD men and their machines just sat in the rear in absence of panzers in the hedgerows while infantry were blundering into bloody firefights with Heer and SS ambushers?
Meanwhile, there are also photos of M5 Light tanks, and M8 HMC, fitted with hedgerow cutters. I think I've also seen a photo of a TRV with a hedgerow cutter, but can't locate it now. It allowed them to get off road while maintaining mobility when confronted by the Norman hedges, but it did not make them assault guns.
Yes, they did, which quickly resulted in lost GMC. Meanwhile, most of the SP TD battalions were held in reserve until the breakout, fulfilling their doctrinal role as an antitank reserve, which they did at La Desert and Mortain. It was after breakout that you find them more and more permanently attached to divisions, with one SP battalion per armored division and the rest when available to infantry divisions, filled out with the towed battalions. That is also when the program to rearm the towed battalions with redundant M10 began as did tghe program to re-equip the CDL battalions as standard tank battalions in order to give as many infantry divisions as possible an "assault gun" component, i.e., a tank battalion.I certainly doubt it and it would make no sense to me. If they walked like a tank and quaked like a tank - the poor, bloody infantry certainly saw them as one and demanded they be used as an AFV...