Could be made P51 Mustang responsible for removing Luftwaffe from the sky ? How many planes scored the best US figter pilot in Europe ... I imagine that they scored actually few planes comparing to germans ... Why ? The were not so good pilots or they had a kind of release to home if they would score a number of enemy planes ?
BI
P51 Mustang removed Luftwaffe
There is many reasons the American's and even Brits did not score as many victories in the air. For one thing there were many more allied planes in the air then German, not as much prey to hunt I suppose you would say. Also many of the Germans scored a lot of victories on ther Eastern Front, many in the first couple of years of the war. Plus the Americans did not fly near as many sorties as the German did. Plus as stated there were not nearly enough German planes around as Allied. At Normandy they were almost non-existant.
American pilots were good at their job, as good as any others, as in most things there were a few pilots who were really excellent at it and many that were just average.
In truth the highest scoring American aces were in the P-47 and not the P-51.
The top 5 German aces got all except 6 or so of their victories on the Eastern Front. Some like Heinz Bär were very successful against the Western Nations with something like 126 victories in the West. But he was shot down like 18 times, that is a lot of luck and 2 cats full life.
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski victories 28.0 in the P-47, highest scoring ace for Americans in the ETO. Richard Bong had 40 victories in the P-38 in the PTO. David Campbell of the US Navy had 34 victories in the F6F.
The highest scoring Allied Ace was a Soviet Pilot, Ivan Kozhedub he had like 62 victories, including a Me-262.
American pilots were good at their job, as good as any others, as in most things there were a few pilots who were really excellent at it and many that were just average.
In truth the highest scoring American aces were in the P-47 and not the P-51.
The top 5 German aces got all except 6 or so of their victories on the Eastern Front. Some like Heinz Bär were very successful against the Western Nations with something like 126 victories in the West. But he was shot down like 18 times, that is a lot of luck and 2 cats full life.
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski victories 28.0 in the P-47, highest scoring ace for Americans in the ETO. Richard Bong had 40 victories in the P-38 in the PTO. David Campbell of the US Navy had 34 victories in the F6F.
The highest scoring Allied Ace was a Soviet Pilot, Ivan Kozhedub he had like 62 victories, including a Me-262.
Did american fighters have a target of enemy planes to shot down and when they achieved the target they could go home , released from the army ? This would explain also the low number of hits ... :roll:
What about the performance of P51 Mustang during war ? May it be responsible for removing Luftwaffe from the sky ?
Regarding Normandy I know that actually there were 2 germans planes in actions ? Am I right ?
What about the performance of P51 Mustang during war ? May it be responsible for removing Luftwaffe from the sky ?
Regarding Normandy I know that actually there were 2 germans planes in actions ? Am I right ?
The Americans also tended to rotate their fighter pilots to training duties or stateside for a rest. Sometimes, the experienced pilots would return to combat, sometimes they were kept stateside to continue training, War Bond tours, etc. This was done to keep a fresh supply of trained pilots coming to war, and to keep the experienced pilots from getting "burnt out". Whereas, the German and Japanese pilots flew, more or less, until they were seriously injured or were killed.
You must also remember, that later on in the war, the German pilots were flying over territory that they controlled, and that those who were shot down were usually back in combat within a few hours. Where American or British pilots who were shot down and survived were likely to be captured.
As far as I know, fighter pilots did not have a set number of kills to reach before being sent home. The bomber crews had to reach 25 missions before being sent home, but this did not apply to fighter pilots. However, the Top Brass would get protective of the leading aces, and withdraw them from combat. This happened to Richard Bong, America's leading ace, he was withdrawn from combat, to perform training and test pilot duties. He would be killed on August 6, 1945 (I think) while he was testing the P-80 jet fighter.
As for Normandy, the Luftwaffe flew 100+ sorties against the beachhead, but the one that is remembered is the flight by "Pips" Priller and his wingman. This flight was made famous in Cornelius Ryan's book; "The Longest Day".
AS for the effect the P-51 had on the airwar. That has long been in debate. It was defintitly one of the best, if not the best fighter in the ETO. But, then again, that would depend on which pilot / person you were talking to. The strongest factor, I think, is not a specific plane, but the logistical aspect of the air war. The Luftwaffe died from lack of fuel. The production numbers were increasing thru 1944. However, the fuel stocks were being rapidly depleted. In the end the Luftwaffe still had many planes, just no fuel to fly them.
You must also remember, that later on in the war, the German pilots were flying over territory that they controlled, and that those who were shot down were usually back in combat within a few hours. Where American or British pilots who were shot down and survived were likely to be captured.
As far as I know, fighter pilots did not have a set number of kills to reach before being sent home. The bomber crews had to reach 25 missions before being sent home, but this did not apply to fighter pilots. However, the Top Brass would get protective of the leading aces, and withdraw them from combat. This happened to Richard Bong, America's leading ace, he was withdrawn from combat, to perform training and test pilot duties. He would be killed on August 6, 1945 (I think) while he was testing the P-80 jet fighter.
As for Normandy, the Luftwaffe flew 100+ sorties against the beachhead, but the one that is remembered is the flight by "Pips" Priller and his wingman. This flight was made famous in Cornelius Ryan's book; "The Longest Day".
AS for the effect the P-51 had on the airwar. That has long been in debate. It was defintitly one of the best, if not the best fighter in the ETO. But, then again, that would depend on which pilot / person you were talking to. The strongest factor, I think, is not a specific plane, but the logistical aspect of the air war. The Luftwaffe died from lack of fuel. The production numbers were increasing thru 1944. However, the fuel stocks were being rapidly depleted. In the end the Luftwaffe still had many planes, just no fuel to fly them.
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gabriel pagliarani
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Exactly, takao.
Sir Takao,
you are completely right. Statistically in 1943 the average expectance to survive before being killed was 15 missions on 3rd Reich, both bombers and fighters of USAAFE. But it happened the 1 st time for "Memphis Belle" crew: the allied commands were therefore able to grant a 95% of survivals to their crews by removing them at 15th mission. I dont know the exact survival rate of Luftwaffe, but I know the average "normal" expectance of survival before death for an italian pilot: a week only without programmed substitutions. Also the killing attribution changed from Air Force to Air Force: if 2 italian fighters killed the same enemy the intelligence had to tribute the entire victory to the whole unit. RAF in the same situation used always a percentage attribution: for example 60%to the wing leader and 40% to its own winger by counting the rounds or the time of exposition to aimed firing. Also the attributions changed if the killed plane crashed in or out the controlled territory: Italians never used camera-guns till 1944 therefore the probability and assignement of individual victories was extremely lowered respect with group "probable" assignements. But it was not a football play with international referee and the rules were changed also for propaganda internal use in a lot of countries .
About P51D it was the preferred fighter from allied because it was fast and safe: a real flying "cadillac" if compared to some old Axis models. But it had not special features: it was simply OK in any situation giving some chance to survive to medium quality pilots. Aces were able to win any dogfight with superseeded models: ask me what Saburo Sakai and his old Zero were able to do over Okinawa!
you are completely right. Statistically in 1943 the average expectance to survive before being killed was 15 missions on 3rd Reich, both bombers and fighters of USAAFE. But it happened the 1 st time for "Memphis Belle" crew: the allied commands were therefore able to grant a 95% of survivals to their crews by removing them at 15th mission. I dont know the exact survival rate of Luftwaffe, but I know the average "normal" expectance of survival before death for an italian pilot: a week only without programmed substitutions. Also the killing attribution changed from Air Force to Air Force: if 2 italian fighters killed the same enemy the intelligence had to tribute the entire victory to the whole unit. RAF in the same situation used always a percentage attribution: for example 60%to the wing leader and 40% to its own winger by counting the rounds or the time of exposition to aimed firing. Also the attributions changed if the killed plane crashed in or out the controlled territory: Italians never used camera-guns till 1944 therefore the probability and assignement of individual victories was extremely lowered respect with group "probable" assignements. But it was not a football play with international referee and the rules were changed also for propaganda internal use in a lot of countries .
About P51D it was the preferred fighter from allied because it was fast and safe: a real flying "cadillac" if compared to some old Axis models. But it had not special features: it was simply OK in any situation giving some chance to survive to medium quality pilots. Aces were able to win any dogfight with superseeded models: ask me what Saburo Sakai and his old Zero were able to do over Okinawa!
The P-51 accounted for over half of the German loses in the West. The most important impact the P-51 had was its long range, and the ability to escort the bombers into Germany.
The P-51 4950 aircraft in the air and 4100 or so on the ground during the war. Depending on what is being counted the P-51 had a 11:1 kill ratio to a 19:1 kill ratio.
The B(ee) Stang:
The P-51 4950 aircraft in the air and 4100 or so on the ground during the war. Depending on what is being counted the P-51 had a 11:1 kill ratio to a 19:1 kill ratio.
The B(ee) Stang:
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gabriel pagliarani
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What kind of ratio
Sir Caldric,
what kind of ratios have you? This means only that a lot of assignements were only presuntive. For example if 4 pilots had gunned the same target and there is no ground control about the count of crashes, "Spy" assigned a victory each in the while there were only 1! How many times it happened? But the fine thing is that every pilot of them was really convinced to have shot down "his own enemy"! If your ratio was true, allied entered in Berlin in 1942...
what kind of ratios have you? This means only that a lot of assignements were only presuntive. For example if 4 pilots had gunned the same target and there is no ground control about the count of crashes, "Spy" assigned a victory each in the while there were only 1! How many times it happened? But the fine thing is that every pilot of them was really convinced to have shot down "his own enemy"! If your ratio was true, allied entered in Berlin in 1942...
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gabriel pagliarani
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wide nos
Americans love wide numbers! 50000 fighters divided by mean of 5 years of war means an average of 10000 new planes per year out of factories.
But every year there was a new enhanced version substituting the previous therefore f.e. no Bf 109 D (Battle of britain) was still used in 1943. New planes substituted therefore also tired planes and losses. But this happened till 1944. I am sure that only 20% of planes produced in Italy from Ansaldo, Breda, Caproni, Fiat, Macchi and Reggiane arrived to ANR units from Jan.44 till end. Because Italy was bombed as much as Germany, I can extrapolate the same ratio for Luftwaffe and I say that only 4000 fighters were assigned to JGs instead of more than 20000 by your numbers. Bombers won the war, not Mustangs. Your sillogism was too easy for me, Sir Caldric. Try again...
But every year there was a new enhanced version substituting the previous therefore f.e. no Bf 109 D (Battle of britain) was still used in 1943. New planes substituted therefore also tired planes and losses. But this happened till 1944. I am sure that only 20% of planes produced in Italy from Ansaldo, Breda, Caproni, Fiat, Macchi and Reggiane arrived to ANR units from Jan.44 till end. Because Italy was bombed as much as Germany, I can extrapolate the same ratio for Luftwaffe and I say that only 4000 fighters were assigned to JGs instead of more than 20000 by your numbers. Bombers won the war, not Mustangs. Your sillogism was too easy for me, Sir Caldric. Try again...
And the P-51 was built over 5 years. What is your point? 20,000 Fw-190's were built give or take, so are you saying just threw the 190a away after they came out with say the D model? But Even still it is not important nor are they my numbers so you are arguing with yourself, I suggest you do a search at http://www.google.com and start correcting the dozens of military sites on the internet about the numbers. Also you are stating that only 4000 Planes were ever used by the German Air Force.
I never said P-51 won the war, your English comprehension has escaped you. I actually said the P-47 had more air kills. The P-51 major impact was escorting the Bombers. As I stated.
I never said P-51 won the war, your English comprehension has escaped you. I actually said the P-47 had more air kills. The P-51 major impact was escorting the Bombers. As I stated.
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gabriel pagliarani
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P51
Long-nose entered in service in late 44. But the Short-nose changed every year: there is a number following the A letter that it means a sub-version. The first subs had a single-stage volumetric compressor, the last version had a 2-stages compressor plus separated alcohol injection MW-50 and peroxide injection MW-1, doubling the power. The limit of german radial air cooled engine was in warming the heads by oil, without an exchange technology used on Pratt&Whitney in the while, this is a reason of the success of the powerful Thunderbolt and the reason of the development of Long-nose. (This heat exchange technology developed by Packard was recently used on Suzuki GSX-R series oil cooled motorcycles. I had a 1100. Nice) Anyway Short-nose doubled its own power from 1942 to 1944 and a 1942 version in 1944 was able to dogfight only against MiG-3 and La-7. About P-47D I agree with you, it was the best heavy fighter on European Theatre. Dad after the war, returned in service and he flew with both planes before jets. But his best choice was the mighty P-47:nothing could resist to the fire of 8 guns while diving! But it was really more complex and hard to pilot if compared to the easy P-51D. Dad considered Mustang as easy as a car.(..wonna a photo of dad?I must have..) About the information "on line" I can only suggest you to compare all numbers before achieving. Whatch f.e. the forum about 8.8cm Flak Kanone in this site: there is no weight of grenade reported from other sites to be only similar each other. About my english I have always another language to use: for you no further choice.
Your english is fine, although comical at times, in a good way. I can almost hear when reading the heavy Italian accent.
At any rate I know the numbers are wide and far, notice the wide range of error in 11:1 and 19:1. I was only trying to show that the P-51 although a great plane was not the only one in the war in Europe.
At any rate I know the numbers are wide and far, notice the wide range of error in 11:1 and 19:1. I was only trying to show that the P-51 although a great plane was not the only one in the war in Europe.
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gabriel pagliarani
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Best fighters
Sir Caldric,
don't worry about my comical english..my italian is comical too! About P-51 nobody noticed that it was revolutionary by mean of the loaded structure in which the aluminum covering was considered part of the whole strut (as per modern planes) and the use of flat rivets without heads, gaving to that "flying cadillac" a fine aerodynamic shape. I don't understand so schematic reports containing only numbers, easy to copy but hard to understand. Why a so low interest for P40, P38 and many others?
don't worry about my comical english..my italian is comical too! About P-51 nobody noticed that it was revolutionary by mean of the loaded structure in which the aluminum covering was considered part of the whole strut (as per modern planes) and the use of flat rivets without heads, gaving to that "flying cadillac" a fine aerodynamic shape. I don't understand so schematic reports containing only numbers, easy to copy but hard to understand. Why a so low interest for P40, P38 and many others?
Ahh I love the P-40, not the best plane, but in competent hands it was good enough for the early war. Actually the highest scoring US ace was in a P-38, Bong in the Pacific. The P-38 was a wonderful plane, I do not think many nations can out boast the US as far as number of great fighters. They were as good as any nations:
P-38
P-47
P-51
F4U
F6F
F8F (although late)
Also had several Aces in the P-40 and F4F Wildcat.
P-38
P-47
P-51
F4U
F6F
F8F (although late)
Also had several Aces in the P-40 and F4F Wildcat.