P51 Mustang removed Luftwaffe

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Mil-tech Bard
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Re: P51 Mustang removed Luftwaffe

#31

Post by Mil-tech Bard » 06 Apr 2014, 17:43

This is the best single source I have seen on the P-51 versus other American fighters in the ETO Combined Bombing Offensive:

Dr Carlo Kopp, AFAIAA, SMIEEE, PEng, “Der Gabelschwanz Teufel – Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning,” Technical Report APA-TR-2010-1201. December, 2010, Updated April, 2012

http://www.ausairpower.net/P-38-Analysis.html

This passage is from the Kopp link above —
Capt. Heiden makes some further interesting observations.
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“The P-51 was a new airplane and we were eager to fly it and were happy with it. It was so easy and comfortable to fly. The P-38 had kept us on our toes and constantly busy–far more critical to fly. You never could relax with it. We were disappointed with the 51′s rate of climb and concerned with the reverse stick, especially if fuel was in the fuselage tank, the rash of rough engines from fouled plugs, and cracked heads which dumped the coolant. With the 38 you could be at altitude before landfall over the continent, but with the 51 you still had a lot of climbing yet to do. The 38 was an interceptor and if both engines (were healthy), you could outclimb any other airplane, and that’s what wins dog fights. When you are in a dog fight below tree tops, it is way more comfortable in a 38 with its power and stall characteristics and, for that matter at any altitude.”
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To summarize the performance of the P-38 in the 8th AF, Capt Heiden notes:
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“Aug 43, 8thAF has retrieved some Bomber Gps and has several original Spitfire/P-47 FGs. Two P-38 FGs, 1-P-51 FG that will not be operational till late Oct and have to workout tactics and maintenance problems, which all are severe. Highly inadequate supply of A/C.”
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“Nov. 43, P-38Hs and P-51Bs beginning ops, find themselves in a climate environment none had experienced before and a superior opponent with 10 times the numbers. Forced to take the bombers to, over and withdraw them. Lucky to get half of what they had to the target after aborts/early returns. Sometimes as few as four fighters made it to target under attack continuously going and coming. Five minutes of METO power was planned into the profile. Meaning that if you fought over five minutes you wouldn’t make it home. Remember, you were being bounced continuously.”
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“Feb 11, 44, 357thFG goes on Ops (P-51). 4thFG converts to P-51s. 2-weeks later and other groups are converting by end of Feb. Now fighter groups don’t have to go the whole to, over, and from target. The escort is now Penetration, Target, and Withdrawal, each leg is assigned to only one FG. and many operational problems are being resolved. Internal fuel on P-38s has been greatly increased with Wing and Leading edge tanks. P-47s are starting to get external fuel tanks.”
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“The last half of 43 brought horrendous losses, had forced German manufacturing underground and had forced Germany to go to synthetic oil. This had increased the cost of war exponentially to the Germans.”
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“Feb 44 we went back to Schwienfurt with acceptable loses. March 3rd the 20th & 55thFGs went to Berlin–Bombers were recalled. March, April, and May brought vicious battles, often with heavy loses. However, Germany were throwing their valuable flight instructors and 100hr students in to the battle. The Luftwaffe was at last starting to die.”
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“The 8th was, at last, being flooded with Mustangs and well trained pilots. The Mustang was a delight to fly, easier to maintain cheaper to build and train pilots for, and had long legs. In those respects you can rightfully call it better, but it could not do anything better than a P-38J-25 or L. Just remember who took the war to the enemy and held on under inconceivable odds. Enough of the crap.”

Mil-tech Bard
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Re: P51 Mustang removed Luftwaffe

#32

Post by Mil-tech Bard » 06 Apr 2014, 18:26

Another very useful article relating to the P-51 in the ETO is over on the Chicago Boyz web log.

See:

History Friday: Deconstructing the P-51 Mustang Historical Narrative
Posted by Trent Telenko on September 27th, 2013
http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/38801.html


The key point from that article regards the P-51 was that the Mustang was the beneficiary of a change from the Eaker-Goering “close escort all the way to target and back” doctrine prior to Operation Pointblank to a three shift air escort doctrine. This three shift doctrine called for a "penetration bomber support profile" to the target area, a "target area support profile" that covered 30 minutes either side of the the Bombing Stream initial point and a "withdrawal bomber support profile" that covered the remainder of the Bomber stream return flight.

Typically the P-47's and UK Fighter Command/2nd Tactical Air Force Spitfires flew the penetration/withdrawal bomber support profiles while the P-38 and later the P-51 did the "target area support profile."

What that change meant can be seen with the P-38H. That variant of the Lightning had only had 5-minutes of Military Emergency Power for the entire Goering-like close escort of the bomber stream all the way to target and back mission profile. The change to a three shift escort doctrine allowed the P-38H to have 25-minutes of military emergency power plus five minutes of War Emergency Power with water injection.

When the P-38 was flying the "target area support profile" — as opposed to a penetration/withdrawal bomber support profile — it could fly lower to the target area then climb up to meet the bombers. This was true of all the fighters used in the ETO, but the P-38 benefited more from it with its touchy Allison/Turbocharger engines.

This three shift doctrine also included a major rules of engagement change that made all the difference in the world. The three shift doctrine moved from visible support of the bombers to “kill German fighters where ever they are found.”

This meant that there was no longer any sanctuary where German fighters, particularly the twin-engine rocket carrying Me-110, could build up large formations to overwhelm a bomber stream combat box through fighter escorts.

American fighters could use the UK “Y-Service” radio intercept system to throw squadrons of fighters at German assembly areas ahead of 8th/15th Air Force bomber streams. It also meant there was no safe training areas for German novice pilots starting in the late Spring of 1944 just as the American oil campaign was getting into full swing.

That combination of no sanctuary, no fuel to train, and the several to one onslaught of 250-to-300 hour training program Mustang pilots is what cause the “Lancaster Square collapse” of Luftwaffe fighter defenses by April-May 1944.


geahanse
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Re: P51 Mustang removed Luftwaffe

#33

Post by geahanse » 12 May 2014, 10:18

Fighter pilots had to complete 40-50 missions before being sent back stateside, depending on what time along in the war

Felix C
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Re: P51 Mustang removed Luftwaffe

#34

Post by Felix C » 27 Jun 2014, 22:26

Heavy bomber defensive fire did not reduce a significant amount of Luftwaffe fighters?

Mil-tech Bard
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Re: P51 Mustang removed Luftwaffe

#35

Post by Mil-tech Bard » 03 Jul 2014, 19:56

Felix C wrote:Heavy bomber defensive fire did not reduce a significant amount of Luftwaffe fighters?

Bomber defensive fire was less than 1/10th as effective as 8th Air Force claimed during the war.

The bottom line was they could not sustain the levels of attrition in terms of losing several 4-engine bombers per Luftwaffe fighter it was taking prior to deep fighter escort.

paspartoo
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Re: P51 Mustang removed Luftwaffe

#36

Post by paspartoo » 04 Jul 2014, 08:20

Thanks for the very interesting links. The P-51 was a good fighter but it had stability problems, weak armament and inferior acceleration compared to German fighters. People tend to forget these issues...
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: P51 Mustang removed Luftwaffe

#37

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 06 Jul 2014, 00:55

Mil-tech Bard wrote:...

That combination of no sanctuary, no fuel to train, and the several to one onslaught of 250-to-300 hour training program Mustang pilots is what cause the “Lancaster Square collapse” of Luftwaffe fighter defenses by April-May 1944.
"250 to 300 hour training" Depending on the source German pilots training fell from 200 hours to as low as 150 during the same months the US time increased. Still, if John Ellis is correct the USAAF were slackers compared to the RAF. In 'Brute Force' he states the RAF fighter pilot school hours reached 325 hours during 1943, & 340 in 1944.

What with the differences in training, and higher losses among the German pilots reducing experience I'd think the RAF & USAAF could have been flying long ranged Hurricanes and P40s & still had similar results in these months of the war.

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