Shanghai Defense Force 1927

[Jerry Asher]

Is there a good article on the British build up after the Hankow (Wuhan) and Juijiang (Kuikiang) incidents of early January 1927. I have two ships the Vasna----no details as to size, carrying troops or cargo but from India arriving Shanghai Feb 14th 1927
HMT Takliwa carrying 2nd Durham Light Infantry from India " " " 14th, 1927
Minnnesota (HMT?) with 12th Royal Marines Bn from England " March ????? 19927
Also orders of Feb 12th for CV Argus and CL Dauntless to proceed from Malta to China Station

Allso there are least two Indian Army formation 4/1st Punjabi and 3/14 Punjabi---I have no idea how to read that 4thBn of 1st Regiment?

Early Spring build up is significant---Many --many thanks.

[Old China Hand]

Hi...I am a new member here, although have been "loitering" for a long time. The SDF is something I have been researching for some years. I have now - I think ! - got an almost complete order of battle for the UK army force that was sent - i.e. the SDF - and have a fairly comprehensive listing of the RN vessels. Are there any specific aspects/units you are interested in ?

4/1st Punjabi is indeed 4th Battalion, 1st Punjab Regiment. They, the 3/14th Punjabis, 2nd DLI and 2nd Glosters made up 20th Infantry Brigade sent from India. Two further Infantry Brigades, 13th and 14th, were sent from UK in Jan/Feb 1927, plus supporting units (including, as you say, 12th RM). And 15th Inf Bde later, although it only went as far as Hong Kong. It amounted to the best part of a division eventually, c. 18-20K men.

The Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Defence_Force) has the basics but it is not 100% complete in terms of ground forces.

It is a seriously under-researched campaign...I cannot refer you to a single article (as I haven't written it yet !).

[Jerry Asher]

Many thanks Old China Hand and welcome to the forum: Let me share: Really Shanghai Defense Force is really one of the more transparent of military moves. Papers are gold mine. Order of Battle is precise.

January 22 Unknown Indian Army Bn; posted to Honk Kong is order to Shanghai for temp. duty. Depart ? arrives January 27 on unknown ship

2nd Bn Durham Light Infantry 29 January " February 12 on Takliwa
2nd Bn Glouchester 27 " " February 12 on Vasna (?)
4th Bn 1st Punjab
3rd Bn 14 Pujab February 19th (Landed)
2nd Bn Coldstream Guards 22 " " March 10 on Kinfaus Castle
1st Bn Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire on Megantic
2ns Bn Borders on Megantic
1st Bn Devonshire
1st Bn Middlesex
1st Bn Cameronians
1st Bn Borders
1st Bn greenHowards
12th Marine March on Minnesota
2nd Bn Suffolk Feb. 22

other ships involved Kildor'nn Castle, Assam, Herminius, Zeeland (5th Armored Car Company)
also six airplanes, seven artillery batteries 10th Sapper & Miners Company
How many armored cars in 5th Armored Car Company

[Old China Hand]

Hi, thanks, yes I have all that I think. As you say, it is transparent (I am sure the Brits wanted the Chinese to know exactly what was coming, in a deterrence sense), I've got a lot of papers from UK National Archives in Kew, it's just that no-one has written much about it...yet...possibly because it was not involved in any significant fighting (although they did staff all sorts of fascinating contingencies !).

The unknown Bn from Hong Kong was 5th/2nd Punjab Regiment. Transport was 1/2 Bn on liner Empress of Canada, 1/2 Bn on an unknown coastal steamer.
I have nine artillery batteries in first deployment, three more later.
5th Armoured Car Company had 16 Rolls Royce. Transport was on HMT Karmala and HMT Bellerophon (many other units on both, of course). I do not have a record of a ship Zeeland involved so far.
Aircraft - 15 FAA aircraft on HMS Argus, 12 RAF later.
Infantry - 15 Inf Bde, which deployed in April 1927, but it was held at Hong Kong - 2nd Scots Guards ; 1st Queens Regiment ; 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment ; 2nd Battalion Welsh Regiment ; and supporting arms.
Ships you mention are I think HMT Assaye (not Assam) ; SS Kildonan Castle ; SS Kinfauns Castle.

[Jerry Asher]

Many thanks Old China Hand--Let me know when you finis your article. Your corrections are much appreciated---have been using images of old newspapers--Kildonan, Assaye was clear but I thought it was a corruption for Assam. I also have a mention of a Gelnogle which I thought might be Gleneagle. My interest now that we have OB is Dates :movement, embarkation, sailing, arrival and landing. of each unit. Would be interested in list of Royal Navy vessels. Again many thanks and have a great week end.

[Old China Hand]

Hi, don't have anything similar to 'Gelnogle' or anything with Glen on my list so far.

What is your own particular angle of interest on this op ?

[Jerry Asher]

Hi Old China Hang: again many thanks for your sharing. No publisher yet but doing a book importance of maritime and naval warfare in Chinese revolution. If you ask me, I am done but I always seem to find a threat that I can understand better or clarify a detail that is on the verge of being lost to human thought. Please note my inquiry and wonderful response from Loic on the France Board. I am hare brained, but a book I did, "Duel for the Golan," is still in print a quarter of a century after first publication and was republished in India in 2012. Have never fully organized all the stuff relative to Royal Navy nor seen anything like a coherent account. That however is incidental to the interplay between decision making, the Chinese Revolution and the importance of ships and shipping to both. Again many thanks

[Jerry Asher]

Old China Hand: seem to be receiving PM , but not able to reply on PM. Your thinking is spot on. FYI Zeeland is Minnesota--going through name change.Looking for arrival dates Feb 12 through March 30 Shanghai or HK if unit did not proceed further. Royal Navy list would be interesting--have Argus and Hermes, haven't organized cruisers, and 3rd Destroyer Flotilla which came out fall 1926. Have a great day.

[Paqueo]

Hi there,
I am researching about the presence of the Spanish cruiser Blas de Lezo in Shanghai in 1927 to protect the Spanish interests in the context of th difficult situation in the city during the Chinese civil war.
The cruiser intervention was done in close coordination with the vessels of the Royal Navy of the China Station (Viceadmiral Reginald Tyrwhitt) and the Shanghai Defence Force (General John Duncan) I would like to know if you have information, including photos, related to the presence of the Spanish cruiser and its relations with the RN and the British Army.

[Jerry Asher]

Welcome to the forum> I am not a photo person and cannot assist you on that. The quickest reference might be the entry of the cruiser Durban under Royal Navy China Station. An officer kept a log and listed shipping and included a drawing as to where ships were berthed on particular days. Have not explored the political discussion within the Spanish government as to her posting: assume, central government, diplomatic corps and navy departments. Again welcome to the forum. While the various governments coordinated, they were not unified nor in agreement on all policies. Any insight you provide would upgrade the picture.