2pdr, 6pdr and HE shells?

[von Adler]

Hi all.

I am trying to get some order in conflicting sources about the British 2pdr and pdr guns (both in AT and tank-mounted versions) and HE shells.

Sources seem to state that no HE shells were available for the 2pdr, but some seem to indicate that the AT guns in france 1940 did indeed have HE shells. Other sources seem to indicate the Austrialians equipping their 2pdrs, both AT and tank versions with HE shells. Was that the case in North Africa too? Were the late war 2pdrs (mostly mounted in armoured cars) equipped with HE shells?

Same thing for the 6pdrs. Some sources say there were HE shells, but that they were unrealiable and issued sparingly, and that British tanks were not equipped with HE shells before being mounted with 75mm Mk I and 17pdr guns, other say that the 6pdr remedied the problem of the 2pdr, equipping both AT and tank guns with HE shells. For example, it seems like Hogg is conflicting himself in different works on the issue.

Are there any reliable data out there? Any members with good data?

[Sitzkrieg]

All I can tell you from reading various Osprey New Vanguard books is that no 6-pdr HE had been issued before the Italian campaign (Hence the need for CS tanks), but afterwards it must have been issued on a satisfactory scale, as the US Army in Normandy borrowed 6-pdr HE from british stocks for their 57mm M1 AT guns.
Cheers,
Sitz.

P.S. Tony Williams is the specialist on ammo issues; why don't you ask him?

[von Adler]

Thanks for your reply.

Ah, yes, but sources conflict. Thus this post. As far as I know, the US forces had HE shells for their 57mm 6pdr copies from the start. I find rivalling accounts wether or not there were HE shells and wether or not they were distributed and wether or not both AT and tank mounted versions had them.

How do I get in contact with Tony Williams?

I found a topic on this forum, http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=20542 where it is claimed that 6pdrs in tanks had HE shells in Tunisia.

Edit:

I found a discussion on the net, where a Tony Williams are partaking, and the following statement pops up (not from Tony):

The real answer is quite boring. There was a 2pdr HE round and it was issued to both anti-tank and tank regiments - until Dunkirk. After Dunkirk, it was decided to temporarily suspend HE production in order to build up stocks of AP shot against a German invasion, and, for some bureaucratic reason, this temporary suspension lasted until 1942, by which time the 2pdr had ceased to be the main British AT gun.

[JonS]

6-pr HE was available in 1943 in North Africa. Go to http://www.NZETC.org (or.com ... I forget off the top), then go to the 2nd NZ Div Arty History, and do a word search.

[Gerry Chester]

To set the record straight as to the availability and effectiveness of 6-pdr HE.

8th Army ammo returns show that a substantial quantity of 6-pdr HE was delivered to the Middle East for RA use during November, 1942. The Churchill equipped North Irish Horse of 25th Army Tank Brigade, in which I served, had it in inventory prior to shipping to North Africa.

Lending credence to the "supposed" lack of 6-pdr ammo is an incorrect statement in Captain (late Major) MorrelL’s book referring to the Churchill and I quote:
“It was under-gunned - its 6-pdr, with an AP range of 800 yards and NIL HE performance, had proved to be no match for the 75 and 88mm guns of the hull down or dug in German tanks encountered during its advance up the Medjerda Valley.”

It should be noted that Capt. Morrell (who was instrumental in creating the Churchill Na75s) formed his opinions based on his experience while attached to 21st Tank Brigade - note absence of “Army” – which not only saw action in Tunisia for only a few weeks as part of, and under command of, 4th Infantry (Mixed) Division. but also had not been issued with 6-pdr HE. What he failed to acknowledge that most of the action in Tunisia had been in the mountains where the 6-pdrs were more of a match for Panzers including the Tiger, and similar terrain was to be faced in Italy where the Na75s were to be deployed. He also failed to note that 6-pdr HE (which had not been delivered to 21st TB) had been used effectively by the North Irish Horse, especially in the Oued Zarga Mountains and during the battle for ‘Longstop Hill’.

Our 6-pdr gunned Churchills continued using HE until the war's end.in IOtaly.

Cheers, Gerry

[von Adler]

Thankyou very much JonS.

Gerry Chester - thankyou very much for the information. I am honoured to get a first-hand account from a veteran.

[YAN]

I read somewhere that the British and Commonwealth gunners in North Africa had to do with making there own HE shells, I dont know how true this is but I am sure that I seen it on Line.
Yan.

[JonS]

You're probably thinking of the French 75mm shells that were modified.

[YAN]

I must of got mixed up with 57mm, Sorry.

[Tony Williams]

For the different types of 6 pdr ammo, including HE, see the article on "The 6 pdr 7 cwt and the Molins Guns" on my website.

There were two types of 2 pdr HE: the British nose-fuzed type, which seems to have been mainly used in armoured cars, and the Australian base-fuzed type, popular for bunker-busting.

Tony Williams
Homepage: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

[Brakka]

HE ammunition did indeed exist for both the 2pdr and 6pdr guns, the 2pdr initially used an APHE shell until this was replace with AP shot in 1938, stocks of these APHE rounds where used up in the first years of the war. A proper HE round didn't enter production until around August 1942 in the UK, HE ammunition for the 6pdr entered production at the start of 1943.

HE ammunition for both guns was relatively rare with only just over 800k 2pdr HE and 300k 6pdr HE rounds being produced by the end of 1944.

The Daimler Armoured Car handbook states the 2pdr HE round to be the Mk IT with a 2oz 4.5dr filling.
6pdr Handbook gives the 6pdr HE round to be the Mk IT 6oz 9dr filling of TNT.

Hope that helps!

[JonS]

HE ammunition for the 6pdr entered production at the end of 1943.

This date is incorrect.

[Brakka]

HE ammunition for the 6pdr entered production at the end of 1943.

This date is incorrect.

My mistake, should have been start of not end of

[JonS]

Still not sure that's correct. 7(NZ)A-Tk recieved their first 6-pr HE in early Jan 1943 (and promptly started experimenting with indirect fire :roll: ), so the rounds presumably must have been in production some time before that.

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-W ... c14-6.html
(scroll to bottom)

[Brakka]

Still not sure that's correct. 7(NZ)A-Tk recieved their first 6-pr HE in early Jan 1943 (and promptly started experimenting with indirect fire :roll: ), so the rounds presumably must have been in production some time before that.

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-W ... c14-6.html
(scroll to bottom)

Hmm production records from the Ministry of supply show the first 29k empty HE rounds being produced in February '43 with the 5k being filled in the same month. No mention is given to any 6pdr HE production before this date, suppose it's possible for a handfull of rounds before this date..